spotlight wrote:You are not addressing the part that interests me. The fact that according to LDS belief the elements are eternal and the fact that the same elements are recycled to provide multiple mortal physical tabernacles for living things means that as those organisms become resurrected the supply of matter gets used up to provide for the resurrected bodies. Elements that were used to provide multiple bodies for various mortal organisms cannot serve like multiple duty in providing the matter for the resurrected bodies. The earth itself needs its resurrection. It doesn't add up.
Loaves and fishes? Either the matter for the increase had to come from the surrounding elements if the LDS "the elements are eternal" is correct, or that Biblical passage is a red flag that the LDS position on matter is incorrect and a fraud, if one is to accept the Bible as factual, which I don't.
Interesting that you are turning this to a speculative theology thing, especially a speculative part of theology that doesn't bother me much, because there is undoubtedly no "official doctrine" in this area, and as I said before, even if something is "official doctrine" and it doesn't work for me anymore, then I just come up with my own idea to hold privately, but not for preaching.
For me it does add up, but you are really getting off on some strange areas. Let me tell you why it works for me. The earth is constantly accumulating new matter, just like someone with a body that gets fat when they accumulate too much matter in their body. Space dust and space rocks are constantly raining down on the planet, and once in a while, of course, we get hit by a big one. This ultimately provides more raw material over time both for the planet and for the organisms on the planet.
Brigham Young had sort of what I would call an "extreme" view on this:
The question may be asked, Do not the particles that compose man's body, when returned to mother earth, go to make or compose other bodies? No, they do not. Some philosophers have asserted that human body changes every seven or ten years. This is not correct, for it never changes; that is, the substances of which it is composed do not pass off and other particles of matter come and take their place. Neither can the particles which have comprised the bodies of men become parts of the bodies of other men, or of beasts, fowls, fish, insects or vegetables. They are governed by a divine law, and though they may pass from the knowledge of the scientific world, that divine law still holds and governs and control them. Man's body may be buried in the ocean, it may be eaten by wild beasts, or it may be burned to ashes, and be scattered to the four winds, yet the particles of is composed will not be incorporated into any form of vegetable or animal life, to become a component part of their structure. Are they gross, tangible, and, in their organized capacity, subject to decay and change? Yes, and if buried in the earth, they undergo decomposition and return to mother earth; but it is no matter how minute the particles are, they are watched over and will be preserved until the resurrection and at the sound of the trumpet of God every particle of our physical structures necessary to make our tabernacles perfect will be assembled, to be rejoined with the spirit, every man in his order. Not one particle will be lost. (Deseret News Weekly, 13 October 1875, 581-84)
This is clearly not correct, as we know by further light and knowledge in our day, and as with anything, we move on when something doesn't work, as I said.
Joseph Smith on the other hand was more reasonable:
“There is no fundamental principle belonging to a human system that ever goes into another in this world or in the world to come; I care not what the theories of men are. We have the testimony that God will raise us up, and he has the power to do it. If any one supposes that any part of our bodies, that is, the fundamental parts thereof, ever goes into another body, he is mistaken.” (Joseph Smith, HC, 5:339)
As was Joseph Fielding Smith:
It is true that the mortal body in due time returns to the earth as the Lord predicted that it should. Much of the cremated body is carried off into the air and only a small portion of ash remains. However it is impossible to destroy a body. It makes no difference whether a body is consumed by fire, buried in the depths of the sea, or placed in the tomb, the time will come when every essential particle will be called back again to its own place, and the individual whose body was laid away, or scattered to the winds, will be reassembled with every essential part restored. (Answers to Gospel Questions, 2:100)
Harold B. Lee stated:
"Oh yes," some of you say. "That is what the scriptures say, and that is what men have preached." But how can it be that these parts of our bodies may be reassembled? You think upon this devastating war [World War II] that is being fought. If their lives are taken, they are drowned in the depths of the ocean and their bodies devoured by the animals of the sea, or they are broken to bits in the destruction of war. Then perhaps the old tempter will try to say, "How can one's body be brought forth? It seems so incredible, and so impossible."
But now we find those questions were asked long before our day. We were not the first ones who began to ask such questions. Here is what the Apostle Paul said: "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." (1 Corinthians 15:35-39.)
Now, what is the Apostle Paul trying to say to us? He is comparing the resurrection of the body of the living soul to the planting of a seed of wheat. He said: "A seed of wheat cannot grow again except it dies." We plant that seed of grain in mother earth, water it by the rains, warm it by nature's sun, and thus it begins to give up its various parts almost completely, so it seems. But sufficient is left to put out tiny shoots, and new shoots will spring up through the ground to form new stems and leaves and flowers. Finally some forty to sixty new seeds spring up. No one here with common reasoning will argue there is very much of the parent seed in these forty-two, but sufficient is to be found to give it the same size, the same texture, so that we recognize in these new seeds an exact quality of that which was planted.
Now, the Apostle Paul is saying that the death of the human body is to be compared with the sowing of a grain of wheat. What happened? Let's follow his comparison. "This body cannot be quickened except it dies. For we sow not this body as it shall be." We will put this body of [this brother] in mother earth this afternoon, and the body shall, as the prophet of old said: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
There this body will remain until the day shall come when the trumpet is sounded, and those who rise in that hour shall stand forth and mother new seeds. There may not be much of that which today is the corruptible body, but there will be sufficient of that which is [this brother] to come forth, and he will stand with the same marks of identification, the same size, the same look, the same smile. Perhaps not much of this corruptible body will be brought forth, but sufficient to give the "seed" of our spiritual body the same quality and marks of identity as that which we had before. (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, pp. 61-62)
And so, speculatively, I take that to mean that there is some essential part, that is core to the being of a person, and the rest is non-essential, and the rest can be used and recycled. What part this is, I don't know for sure, nor do I pretend to know. Mormonism doesn't really give us the key, but perhaps a native american source might:
http://qwertp.com/Book_s/pdf_BooKs/Campbell,%20Joseph%20-%20The%20Masks%20of%20God%20-%20Primitive%20Mythology.pdf
Campbell in Primitive Mythology talks about the Buffalo Dance and the Blackfoot legend where a woman had a husband that was a buffalo, and her father came looking for her to bring her home. The father was killed by the buffalo. She performed a resurrection on her father that was killed but all that was left over to do so was a particle of bone from the backbone. The rest of the body was gone. Who knows if there is anything to this. It is interesting to say the least.
But the point is, the claim seems to be, both in this native American legend, along with from Joseph Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith, that some fundamental part of the body is not recycled, and is used as a sort of "seed" for the resurrected body, even though the matter that makes up the rest of the body may not be original to it. Who knows whether this original part of the body has to be a piece of the backbone, or a piece of this or a piece of that. It seems so long as there is some small piece, it is an original part of the original body. So while the Book of Mormon basically makes the claim that nothing will be lost and everything restored to its perfect frame, I think that is pretty extreme to suppose that every single part of it will be every part of the original. There is at least some portion that will act as seed for the rest of the reconstructed body.
For me, this is neither here nor there, because I believe that it is all the same when I get my body back, or a body back, whichever he case it is, whether the same matter is used or not. What I'm pretty sure of is that it will be actual resurrection, not reincarnation.
