Book of Mormon Evidence

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_bomgeography
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Re: Book of Mormon Evidence

Post by _bomgeography »

"It's interesting, because Joseph Smith was really one of the least racist Christian leaders of his time. He even tried to be an advocate for abolition within certain conditions. The LDS people have been pushing themselves away from racism for at least fifty years, but the pseudoscientists like May, Meldrum and Collin continue to peddle racist crackpot "theories". If your cause is so weak that it depends on the support of racist pedophiles, you might want to reconsider it. :lol:"


Interesting so based on your above comment you do not think Joseph Smith view that Native Americans are descendants of the lamanites and his tranlation of the Book of Mormon are in no way racist.
I know Book of Mormon critics like to make those claims but you are not one of those based on the above comment.

By the way your the one quoting pedophiles not me

Let's see what scientist have said on the subject.

“A recent survey of European mtDNA has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “Haplogroup X.”” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)
On the basis of genetic analysis of some serum and red-cell protein polymorphisms, Szathmary and Reed and Szathmary et al. were able to reveal the presence of "Caucasian" alleles in the southeastern Ojibwa and to give an estimate of Caucasian admixture of -30%; however, more recent data on other autosomal locus polymorphisms indicate that the genetic admixture may be as great as 50%.
(mtDNA and Y Chromosome-Specific Polymorphisms in Modern Ojibwa: Implications about the Origin of Their Gene Pool)

Let's see what Native American tradition says concerning the topic

Concerning Hattera Indians of North Carolina:
“These Hattera tell us, that several of their Ancestors were white People, and could talk in a Book, as we do; the Truth of which is confirmed by gray eyes being found frequently amongst these Indians, and no others.”
(John Lawson 1709 pg. 62)

Captain Brant Thayendanegea was a well-known Iroquois and Mohawk leader and Chief who sided with the British during the Revolutionary war. He was born of Iroquois parents who converted to Christianity. They gave him a Christian name Joseph Brant. The quote is from his biography:
“I was curious to learn in the course of my conversations with Captain Brant (Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief), what information he could give me respecting the tumuli (mounds) which are found on and near the margin of the rivers and lakes, from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi. He stated, in reply, that the subject had long been agitated, but yet remained in some obscurity. A tradition, he said, prevailed among the different nations of Indians through-out that whole extensive range of country, and had been handed down time immemorial, that in an age long gone by, there came white men from a foreign country, and by consent of the Indians established trading-houses and settlements where these tumuli (mounds) are found. A friendly intercourse was continued for several years; many of the white men brought their wives, and had children born to them; and additions to their numbers were made yearly from their own country. These circumstances at length gave rise to jealousies among the Indians, and fears began to be entertained in regard to the increasing numbers, wealth, and ulterior views of the new comers; apprehending that becoming strong, they might one day seize upon the country as their own. A secret council, composed of the chiefs of all the different nations from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi, was therefore convoked; the result of which, after long deliberation, was a resolution that on a certain night designated for that purpose, all their white neighbors, men, women and children, should be exterminated.“
(Stone 1838 pg. 484)
“Here the Indians tell us there was a war in early times, against an Indian town, traces of which are yet visible, corn pits, etc. This was inhabited by a distinct nation, neither Iroquois nor Delawares, who spoke a peculiar language, and were called Tehotitachse, against them the Five Nations warred and routed them out; the Cayugas for a time held a number captive, but the nation and the language are now exterminated and extinct.”
(Murray 1908 pg. 46)

Natchez Indians of Mississippi, in reference to an ancient race of Indian who preceded them and eventually were defeated:
“I did not fail to ask him who these warriors of fire were. “They were,” said he, “bearded men, white but swarthy... They had come on floating villages from the side where the sun rises. They conquered the ancients of the country, of whom they killed as many as there are spears of grass in the Prairies, and in the beginning they were good friends of our brothers, but ultimately they made them submit as well as the ancients of the country, as our Suns (leaders) had foreseen and had foretold to them.””
(Swanton 1909 pg. 184)
“There is a dim but persistent tradition of a strange white race preceding the Cherokee, some of the stories even going so far as to locate their former settlements and to identify them as the authors of the ancient works found in the country. The earliest reference appears to be that of Barton in 1797, on the statement of a gentleman whom he quotes as a valuable authority upon the southern tribes. “The Cherokee tell us, that when they first arrived in the country which they inhabit, they found it possessed by certain ‘moon-eyed people,’ who could not see in the day-time. These wretches they expelled.” He seems to consider them an albino race.* Haywood, twenty-six years later, says that the invading Cherokee found “white people” near the head of the Little Tennessee, with forts extending thence down the Tennessee as far as Chickamauga creek. He gives the location of three of these forts. The Cherokee made war against them and drove them to the mouth of Big Chickamauga creek, where they entered into a treaty and agreed to remove if permitted to depart in peace. Permission being granted, they abandoned the country. Elsewhere he speaks of this extirpated white race as having extended into Kentucky and probably also into western Tennessee, according to the concurrent traditions of different tribes.” (Mooney 1902 pg. 22)
“Did not these skeletons belong to persons of the same race with those white people, who were extirpated in part, and in part driven from Kentucky, and probably also from West Tennessee, as Indian tradition reports?”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 166)
“An old Indian, in conversation with Colonel James F. Moore, of Kentucky, informed him that the western country, and particularly Kentucky, had once been inhabited by white people, but that they were exterminated by the Indians. That the last battle was fought at the falls of Ohio, and that the Indians succeeded in driving the Aborigines into a small island below the rapids, where the whole of them were cut to pieces.”
(M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)
“Mr. Thomas Bodley was informed by Indians of different tribes northwest of the Ohio, that they had understood from their old men, and that it had been a tradition among their several nations, that Kentucky had been settled by whites, and that they had been exterminated by war. They were of opinion that the old fortifications, now to be seen in Kentucky and Ohio, were the productions of those white inhabitants. Wappockanitta, a Shawnee chief, near a hundred and twenty years old, living on the Auglaze River, confirmed the above tradition.”
(M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_tapirrider
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Re: Book of Mormon Evidence

Post by _tapirrider »

bomgeography wrote:Let's see what scientist have said on the subject.

“A recent survey of European mtDNA has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “Haplogroup X.”” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)
On the basis of genetic analysis of some serum and red-cell protein polymorphisms, Szathmary and Reed and Szathmary et al. were able to reveal the presence of "Caucasian" alleles in the southeastern Ojibwa and to give an estimate of Caucasian admixture of -30%; however, more recent data on other autosomal locus polymorphisms indicate that the genetic admixture may be as great as 50%.
(mtDNA and Y Chromosome-Specific Polymorphisms in Modern Ojibwa: Implications about the Origin of Their Gene Pool)


Still at it David? What is your fascination with Caucasian? Why do you continue to use older publications when caucasian is no longer used that way? Why do you ignore the sources I have provided to you? Why do you put in so much effort to work against your church's attempts to tone down its racism?
_bomgeography
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Re: Book of Mormon Evidence

Post by _bomgeography »

tapirrider wrote:
bomgeography wrote:Let's see what scientist have said on the subject.

“A recent survey of European mtDNA has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “Haplogroup X.”” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)
On the basis of genetic analysis of some serum and red-cell protein polymorphisms, Szathmary and Reed and Szathmary et al. were able to reveal the presence of "Caucasian" alleles in the southeastern Ojibwa and to give an estimate of Caucasian admixture of -30%; however, more recent data on other autosomal locus polymorphisms indicate that the genetic admixture may be as great as 50%.
(mtDNA and Y Chromosome-Specific Polymorphisms in Modern Ojibwa: Implications about the Origin of Their Gene Pool)


Still at it David? What is your fascination with Caucasian? Why do you continue to use older publications when caucasian is no longer used that way? Why do you ignore the sources I have provided to you? Why do you put in so much effort to work against your church's attempts to tone down its racism?


It's the term scientist use.
_tapirrider
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Re: Book of Mormon Evidence

Post by _tapirrider »

bomgeography wrote:Let's see what scientist have said on the subject.

“A recent survey of European mtDNA has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “Haplogroup X.”” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
“To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.” (MtDNA haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?)
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)
On the basis of genetic analysis of some serum and red-cell protein polymorphisms, Szathmary and Reed and Szathmary et al. were able to reveal the presence of "Caucasian" alleles in the southeastern Ojibwa and to give an estimate of Caucasian admixture of -30%; however, more recent data on other autosomal locus polymorphisms indicate that the genetic admixture may be as great as 50%.
(mtDNA and Y Chromosome-Specific Polymorphisms in Modern Ojibwa: Implications about the Origin of Their Gene Pool)


tapirrider wrote:Still at it David? What is your fascination with Caucasian? Why do you continue to use older publications when caucasian is no longer used that way? Why do you ignore the sources I have provided to you? Why do you put in so much effort to work against your church's attempts to tone down its racism?


bomgeography wrote:It's the term scientist use.


You are blatantly wrong. It is a term that was used and is no longer in use. Why do you ignore the references I have given you? Why do you continue to work against your church's efforts to minimize the racism? David McKane, this is just like when you misused the quote about the colonists of Roanoke. You just keep right on doing the same thing, even when it is obvious that you are in error. In this case you have repeated the falsehood "It's the term scientist use." They no longer use that term. Fix your mistakes David.
_Themis
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Re: Book of Mormon Evidence

Post by _Themis »

bomgeography wrote:
Interesting so based on your above comment you do not think Joseph Smith view that Native Americans are descendants of the Lamanites and his tranlation of the Book of Mormon are in no way racist.
I know Book of Mormon critics like to make those claims but you are not one of those based on the above comment.


He said least racist. That means he thought Joseph was racist, but much less then some Christian leaders. The Book of Mormon promotes racist ideas when it says that dark skin was introduced due to sin. They also believed Cain was given dark skin for his murder.

By the way your the one quoting pedophiles not me


Joseph was not a pedophile. A pedophile "is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children". Joseph was a sexual predator bases on his actions with women.

Let's see what scientist have said on the subject.


Did you read where they said "Median network analysis indicated that European and Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs, although distinct, nevertheless are distantly related to each other. Time estimates for the arrival of X in North America are 12,000–36,000 years ago, depending on the number of assumed founders, thus supporting the conclusion that the peoples harboring haplogroup X were among the original founders of Native American populations".

Pay attention to the distinct and distantly related. Also note for arrival is 12-36k years ago. That would be 9-33K years before the Book of Mormon. Big problem there.
42
_bomgeography
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Re: Book of Mormon Evidence

Post by _bomgeography »

Themis wrote:
bomgeography wrote:
Interesting so based on your above comment you do not think Joseph Smith view that Native Americans are descendants of the Lamanites and his tranlation of the Book of Mormon are in no way racist.
I know Book of Mormon critics like to make those claims but you are not one of those based on the above comment.


He said least racist. That means he thought Joseph was racist, but much less then some Christian leaders. The Book of Mormon promotes racist ideas when it says that dark skin was introduced due to sin. They also believed Cain was given dark skin for his murder.

By the way your the one quoting pedophiles not me


Joseph was not a pedophile. A pedophile "is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children". Joseph was a sexual predator bases on his actions with women.

Let's see what scientist have said on the subject.


Did you read where they said "Median network analysis indicated that European and Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs, although distinct, nevertheless are distantly related to each other. Time estimates for the arrival of X in North America are 12,000–36,000 years ago, depending on the number of assumed founders, thus supporting the conclusion that the peoples harboring haplogroup X were among the original founders of Native American populations".

Pay attention to the distinct and distantly related. Also note for arrival is 12-36k years ago. That would be 9-33K years before the Book of Mormon. Big problem there.


There is no evidence for the evidence that haplo groups x arrived via a Siberian crossing. The DNA cultural and linguistic and technology all spell a different timeline.
_tapirrider
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Re: Book of Mormon Evidence

Post by _tapirrider »

bomgeography wrote:
There is no evidence for the evidence that haplo groups x arrived via a Siberian crossing. The DNA cultural and linguistic and technology all spell a different timeline.


DNA coalescence times, radiocarbon dates and the DNA analysis of Kennewick man destroys your proposed timeline. Your claims of cultural and linguistic are not credible. And what is this with technology? Are you claiming that American Indians could not have done it without white help?

David McKane, just give it up. Leave the American Indians alone.
_Lemmie
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Re: Book of Mormon Evidence

Post by _Lemmie »

bomgeography wrote:There is no evidence for the evidence that haplo groups x arrived via a Siberian crossing. The DNA cultural and linguistic and technology all spell a different timeline.

McKane, this erroneous statement of yours has been addressed so many times:
tapirrider wrote:Why do you ignore the fact that Kennewick man was already in America long before the Book of Mormon and Bible timelines? Is your reason for ignoring that because you don't want to accept the evidence of how haplogroup x arrived in America? Do you also ignore the fact that he was before Adam? Timelines based on radiocarbon cannot be arbitrarily ignored just because they don't support what you want.

Now for the evidence of how haplogroup x arrived in America. LDS scientist Dr. Ugo Perego addressed this seven years ago in a scientific study, published in a credible journal of science. See page 5 of the pdf file at this link.
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(08)01618-7.pdf

According to environmental
and paleoecological data, such a path existed and
was represented by the ice-free corridor between the Laurentide
and Cordilleran ice sheets, which opened approximately
15 kya [5] or possibly was never completely closed [38].
Through such a corridor, where some glacial-refuge areas
have been recently identified [39], X2a could have moved
from Beringia directly into the North American regions located
east of the Rocky Mountains. This latter scenario would imply
that the X2a expansion in America occurred in the Great Plains
region, where the terminal part of the glacial corridor ended,
and is in complete agreement with both the extent of diversity
and distribution of X2a observed in modern Native American
populations.


A more recent publication again addressed the erroneous claims of how haplogroup x arrived in America.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10. ... 0000000040

Concerning the Book of Mormon migration theory being promoted by Meldrum and by you David:

This
hypothesis is undermined, though, by four key findings:
X2a is not found in the Middle East, none of the X2
lineages present in the Middle East are immediately
ancestral to X2a, the date of coalescence for X2a
(14,200–17,000 cal year BP) significantly precedes the
hypothesized migration from the Middle East (Perego
et al. 2009), and haplogroup X2a was present in
North America far earlier than the hypothesized
Hebrew migration, having been found in the
8690–8400 cal year BP Kennewick Man remains from
Washington state (Rasmussen et al. 2015). Thus, X2a
does not provide any evidence for an ancient Hebrew
migration from the Middle East to North America.




Mckane, your racist posts are sickening. please stop polluting Native American history with your trash.
_bomgeography
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Re: Book of Mormon Evidence

Post by _bomgeography »

Lemmie wrote:
bomgeography wrote:There is no evidence for the evidence that haplo groups x arrived via a Siberian crossing. The DNA cultural and linguistic and technology all spell a different timeline.

McKane, this erroneous statement of yours has been addressed so many times:
tapirrider wrote:Why do you ignore the fact that Kennewick man was already in America long before the Book of Mormon and Bible timelines? Is your reason for ignoring that because you don't want to accept the evidence of how haplogroup x arrived in America? Do you also ignore the fact that he was before Adam? Timelines based on radiocarbon cannot be arbitrarily ignored just because they don't support what you want.

Now for the evidence of how haplogroup x arrived in America. LDS scientist Dr. Ugo Perego addressed this seven years ago in a scientific study, published in a credible journal of science. See page 5 of the pdf file at this link.
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(08)01618-7.pdf

According to environmental
and paleoecological data, such a path existed and
was represented by the ice-free corridor between the Laurentide
and Cordilleran ice sheets, which opened approximately
15 kya [5] or possibly was never completely closed [38].
Through such a corridor, where some glacial-refuge areas
have been recently identified [39], X2a could have moved
from Beringia directly into the North American regions located
east of the Rocky Mountains. This latter scenario would imply
that the X2a expansion in America occurred in the Great Plains
region, where the terminal part of the glacial corridor ended,
and is in complete agreement with both the extent of diversity
and distribution of X2a observed in modern Native American
populations.


A more recent publication again addressed the erroneous claims of how haplogroup x arrived in America.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10. ... 0000000040

Concerning the Book of Mormon migration theory being promoted by Meldrum and by you David:

This
hypothesis is undermined, though, by four key findings:
X2a is not found in the Middle East, none of the X2
lineages present in the Middle East are immediately
ancestral to X2a, the date of coalescence for X2a
(14,200–17,000 cal year BP) significantly precedes the
hypothesized migration from the Middle East (Perego
et al. 2009), and haplogroup X2a was present in
North America far earlier than the hypothesized
Hebrew migration, having been found in the
8690–8400 cal year BP Kennewick Man remains from
Washington state (Rasmussen et al. 2015). Thus, X2a
does not provide any evidence for an ancient Hebrew
migration from the Middle East to North America.




Mckane, your racist posts are sickening. please stop polluting Native American history with your trash.


I'm quoting scientist and well known historical books. These are racist only if you hate the church
_Lemmie
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Re: Book of Mormon Evidence

Post by _Lemmie »

I'm quoting scientist and well known historical books. These are racist only if you hate the church

Small pause here for grammar. David McKane, would you please learn the plural of words like scientist?

Here are the terms where I have consistently noticed you incorrectly using the plural:

one scientist, several scientistS
one anthropologist, several anthropologistS
one archaeologist, several archaeologistS

Please, please consider updating your grammar and/or typing skills with respect to this rule.
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