For bomgeography, the church of my youth

[_tapirrider]

On another post, David McKane tried to tell me about what I was taught in my youth.

The church officially does not take a position on who the Nephites were

They used to in my youth. Now that all of this evidence that you claim exists, why do you suppose the church no longer takes a position?

That's because in your youth it was meso America 2000 miles away from the hill Cumorah and found no evidence for it. The North American model has evidence and matches the Book of Mormon much better.

I was taught in seminary it took place in meso america

I think it is important for you to understand what I was taught. The prophets and apostles of my youth included David O. McKay, Spencer W. Kimball, Mark E. Peterson, Marion G. Romney, N. Eldon Tanner, etc.

I was not taught that the final battle in the Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica. I was taught about Mark E. Peterson's conference talk concerning two Cumorahs:

"I do not believe we should give credence to the highly speculative theories about Book of Mormon geography."
"I do not believe that there were two Hill Cumorahs, one in Central America and the other one up in New York, for the convenience of the Prophet Joseph Smith, so that the poor boy would not have to walk clear to Central America go get the gold plates."
https://archive.org/stream/conferencere ... 3/mode/2up

The message to the members from the leaders in my young adult years is something that you might want to consider and apply. For example, have you seen this? I was in college when this one came out in the Church News:

The geography of the Book of Mormon has intrigued some readers of that volume ever since its publication. But why worry about it?

Efforts to pinpoint certain places from what is written in the book are fruitless because the record does not give evidence of such locations in terms of our modern geography.

Attempts to designate certain areas as the Land of Bountiful or the site of Zarahemla or the place where the Nephite city of Jerusalem sank into the sea "and waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof" can bring no definitive results. So why speculate?

To guess where Zarahemla stood can in no wise add to anyone's faith. But to raise doubts in people's minds about the location of the Hill Cumorah, and thus challenge the words of the prophets concerning the place where Moroni buried the records, is most certainly harmful. And who has the right to raise doubts in anyone's mind?

Our position is to build faith, not to weaken it, and theories concerning the geography of the Book of Mormon can most certainly undermine faith if allowed to run rampant.

Why not leave hidden the things that the Lord has hidden? If He wants the geography of the Book of Mormon revealed, He will do so through His prophet, and not through some writer who wishes to enlighten the world despite his utter lack of inspiration on the point.

Some authors have felt "called upon" to inform the world about Book of Mormon geography and have published writings giving their views. These books, however, are strictly private works and represent only their personal speculations.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=C ... %2C7515560

David, I am no longer a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I resigned my membership. But much of what I have been trying to tell you for quite some time now is not the rantings of an apostate who is trying to destroy you. Most of what I have said is based on the teachings of my youth, from the leaders of the church, as the above article from the Church News points out.

You have come right out and said that the Mayans are not Book of Mormon people. You have no concern what that might do to those Mayans who have accepted your church's teachings and believe that the Book of Mormon is about them. What position does that put you in? Are your pet theories and hobbies more important than the faith of others who you might weaken?

My beginnings out of the church involved both FAIR's claims and Meldrum's claims. I have no use for either side's positions. My reasons for resigning were not over geography but as the years have passed since then, I am growing more and more certain that I did the right thing. The days of my youth are gone and the church isn't even the same church that I had belonged to. Today the prophet and apostles stand silent while the members divide themselves over who the Book of Mormon people are and where the stories happened. So David, when I converse with you try to understand that I am not attacking you from a position of an apostate, I am coming from the place that the church had taught me in my younger years.

Your claims that the hearland theory is correct are harmful to members of the church. I still care about many people who are LDS. Those who have faith and believe Moroni's promise has worked for them and live good lives do not need nor do they deserve to have your nonsense challenge their faith.

I just want you to understand that as a person younger than my children, it was presumptuous of you to try to tell me what I was taught in my youth. As I see it, you are in disagreement with science and with your own church.

[Guest]

For hobbyist who are fascinated about ideas theories and evidence where the Book of Mormon took place it's very fascinating.

Thousands if not ten of thousands of members are intrigued by the heartland model including myself knowing full well the church does not endorse or push any model unlike what it has done in the past.

As already stated Thousands of members attend conferences about heartland model evidence. They pay money to go on tours and visit hop well sites that are considered sites in the Book of Mormon.

I would think the majority of people who attend these conferences and find the heartland model interesting have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and there testimony is not swayed one way or the others by the evidence.

The church does not endorse any model Although they have only one hill cumorah visitor center in New York.(hill cumora is where the last battles took place)

I have no problem when people criticize the research I've done. What I don't like is when they use foul language after all this is The cleanest forum on Mormon discussion.

I realize that many people who have left the church cite historicity issues for meso America. That's why it's important to have a testimony of the Book of Mormon based upon a witness of the spirit

[_Maksutov]

For hobbyist who are fascinated about ideas theories and evidence where the Book of Mormon took place it's very fascinating.

Thousands if not ten of thousands of members are intrigued by the heartland model including myself knowing full well the church does not endorse or push any model unlike what it has done in the past.

As already stated Thousands of members attend conferences about heartland model evidence. They pay money to go on tours and visit hop well sites that are considered sites in the Book of Mormon.

I would think the majority of people who attend these conferences and find the heartland model interesting have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and there testimony is not swayed one way or the others by the evidence.

The church does not endorse any model Although they have only one hill cumorah visitor center in New York.(hill cumora is where the last battles took place)

I have no problem when people criticize the research I've done. What I don't like is when they use foul language after all this is The cleanest forum on Mormon discussion.

People become frustrated with you when you continue to promote relics and stories that have been demonstrated to be frauds. Also when you just keep posting link after link but you still don't have peer-reviewed research. You still don't have professionals who will endorse any substantial part of what you do. You are still associating with dishonest and unsavory people who will taint your work as long as that continues. Some of us consider dishonesty a greater crime than foul language. You might want to look into some of the language that your associate Frank Joseph was famous for. Be sure to watch the following clip:

https://archive.org/details/FrankCollin ... oryChannel

So, LDS people have to contend with their awful history on African Americans and expecting Native Americans to turn white, and now you want to add to the shame and the stupidity of that legacy by adding a Nazi? Wow.

It's very interesting. When you have these alt-history and woo conventions, it all comes down to gullible people handing over their cold cash for silly books peddled by fake authorities who all have conspiracy theories as to why their nonsense isn't accepted. They're conventions for conmen and their willing marks. What a hoot.

[_bomgeography]

The hopewell civilization is not fake. Their artifacts aren't fake. Their archeological sites aren't fake.

Why do you think Wayne May and Meldrum take members on tours to hopewell arch sites.

[_tapirrider]

For hobbyist who are fascinated about ideas theories and evidence where the Book of Mormon took place it's very fascinating.

Thousands if not ten of thousands of members are intrigued by the heartland model including myself knowing full well the church does not endorse or push any model unlike what it has done in the past.

As already stated Thousands of members attend conferences about heartland model evidence. They pay money to go on tours and visit hop well sites that are considered sites in the Book of Mormon.

I would think the majority of people who attend these conferences and find the heartland model interesting have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and there testimony is not swayed one way or the others by the evidence.

The church does not endorse any model Although they have only one hill cumorah visitor center in New York.(hill cumora is where the last battles took place)

I have no problem when people criticize the research I've done. What I don't like is when they use foul language after all this is The cleanest forum on Mormon discussion.

I realize that many people who have left the church cite historicity issues for meso America. That's why it's important to have a testimony of the Book of Mormon based upon a witness of the spirit

Do you have anything to say about your error in trying to tell me of the church of my youth? Do you think that the apostles and prophets of my youth were in error to promote a hemispheric model? Could you comment on why you think the apostles and prophets of my youth were in error when they included the Mayans and all of America's indigenous peoples for Book of Mormon people? In my adult years, Gordon B. Hinckley and Dieter F. Uchtdorf dedicated the Guatemala temples and indicated in their dedicatory prayers that the Mayans were from the seed of Lehi. Do you think they were mistaken? It seems that you disagree with the statement Efforts to pinpoint certain places from what is written in the book are fruitless because the record does not give evidence of such locations in terms of our modern geography. Do you think that your alleged evidence is any newer or better than what was available in my youth?

You stated that Hill Cumorah in New York is where the last battles took place. I remember Apostles Mark E. Peterson and Marion G. Romney said that too in general conference, before you were born. Why do you suppose that the apostles and prophets no longer say that? It hasn't been said in general conference in your lifetime. Why do you suppose that is? Why do you suppose that Mesoamerican promoters remain in good standing in the church and are allowed to promote two Cumorahs now? How can you be certain that you are right about Cumorah and other LDS members are wrong about two Cumorahs when the apostles and prophets have nothing to say about it anymore? If your heartland model is the true one, why do you suppose that the apostles and prophets remain silent and allow heartlanders and Mesoamericanists to remain in good standing and temple worthy while they dispute and divide against each other over the Hill Cumorah in New York?

[_bomgeography]

I see the prophets and apostles as fallible. When I see them make mistakes it does not affect my testimony.
The prophets and apostles can’t make statements on trivial issues. There focused on important issues such as leading people to Christ. What other people choose to focus on as their hobbies and interest is a personal matter. The leaders of the church have stated to not let it get in the way of drawing closer to Christ.
If you think trying to place a location for the Book of Mormon is a bad thing its your opinion. From what I can tell current prophets and apostles and church leaders have not said anything on the topic. But I stated this before you having left the church I seriously doubt you have the wellbeing of members’ testimony as your number one main concern.
When you say stuff that you say is in the best interest of myself or the church I have to look at what perspective its came from. Frankly when you try and help the church it drops on deaf ears.
I do appreciate your perspective on the evidence though, even though I disagree.

[_tapirrider]

I see the prophets and apostles as fallible. When I see them make mistakes it does not affect my testimony.
The prophets and apostles can’t make statements on trivial issues. There focused on important issues such as leading people to Christ. What other people choose to focus on as their hobbies and interest is a personal matter. The leaders of the church have stated to not let it get in the way of drawing closer to Christ.
If you think trying to place a location for the Book of Mormon is a bad thing its your opinion. From what I can tell current prophets and apostles and church leaders have not said anything on the topic. But I stated this before you having left the church I seriously doubt you have the wellbeing of members’ testimony as your number one main concern.
When you say stuff that you say is in the best interest of myself or the church I have to look at what perspective its came from. Frankly when you try and help the church it drops on deaf ears.
I do appreciate your perspective on the evidence though, even though I disagree.

Are you claiming then that Gordon B. Hinckley and Dieter F. Uchtdorf made a mistake in the Guatemala temple dedicatory prayers concerning the seed of Lehi? If so, do you think that mistake was just a trivial issue? Do you hold to your position that the Mayans are not Book of Mormon people, doing so against the words given in allegedly inspired temple dedicatory prayers of LDS apostles? Do you think that a church led by God through revelation is fine in making such a mistake that misleads Mayan people into believing they are Book of Mormon people even if they are not?

You are younger than my children. You have already presumptuously tried to tell me what I was taught in my youth. You were wrong about that. What makes you think that you have any grasp on truth when you try to make claims that because I have left the church my words to you are simply falling on deaf ears? It seems to me that no amount of truth from any source is likely to get through to you if it doesn't go along with your fantasy. Perhaps your deaf ears are your own doing and have nothing to do with the fact that I no longer belong to your church.

[_bomgeography]

Yes I do think they made a mistake and I do not think mayans are lamanites or nephites.
and unless your children are in there 40 they are not older than me.

[_tapirrider]

Yes I do think they made a mistake and I do not think mayans are Lamanites or Nephites.

I do agree with you that Mayan peoples are not Lamanites or Nephites. Do you think that Jesus Christ is OK with His apostles misleading Mayan peoples with the claim that they are from the seed of Lehi?

If you are as old as you say, there is little excuse for the mistakes you are making. I could grant you some leeway for being young but in your 40s? No.

[_bomgeography]

As stated I believe prophets and apostles are fallible. The church has had to revoke what prophets and apostles have stated in the past. I personally do not know what God thinks about it I'm not God