Question for bomgeography about the flood

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_tapirrider
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Re: Question for bomgeography about the flood

Post by _tapirrider »

bomgeography wrote:The church officially does not take a position on who the Nephites were

tapirrider wrote:They used to in my youth. Now that all of this evidence that you claim exists, why do you suppose the church no longer takes a position?

bomgeography wrote:That's because in your youth it was meso America 2000 miles away from the hill Cumorah and found no evidence for it. The North American model has evidence and matches the Book of Mormon much better.

I was taught in seminary it took place in meso america

David McKane, you are quite young aren't you? I can assure you that it was not Mesoamerica in my youth. It was hemispheric. Have you even read my posts? I was taught that the Cumorah in New York was the location of the final battle, it was stated so by apostles in General Conference numerous times. The church of your youth was not even the same church as the one from mine.

You claim to have all of this evidence, but the church stopped saying where the final battle happened. They no longer claim a hemispheric model and have no official position on where any of it happened. All of your so-called research and claims are not backed by the church. What will you do if the church announces at some point in the future that the Book of Mormon is no longer canonized scripture and is not an ancient record?

bomgeography wrote:Eventually they will figure it out.

They have figured it out but you refuse to accept it. You reject science when it does not support your fantasy and you cherry pick bits and pieces from science to create an illusion that science backs your wild claims. David, science has the answers but you simply don't want to hear the truth.
_spotlight
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Re: Question for bomgeography about the flood

Post by _spotlight »

bomgeography wrote:The church officially does not take a position on who the Nephites were

That's because the church has living prophets and apostles who receive ongoing revelation - Oh wait. :lol:
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Maksutov
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Re: Question for bomgeography about the flood

Post by _Maksutov »

spotlight wrote:
bomgeography wrote:The church officially does not take a position on who the Nephites were

That's because the church has living prophets and apostles who receive ongoing revelation - Oh wait. :lol:


Nephites per David McKane:

Image

Image


Nephites per The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (owner and authorized interpreter of the Book of Mormon)


Image

Image

Image

The church still continues to choose to use MesoAmerican cultural representations to illustrate the Book of Mormon. The church leaders would not promulgate an erroneous illustration of the Book of Mormon. They are aware of and have rejected the Heartland Model. Their actions confirm this. :wink:

May, Meldrum and McKane are Mormon fringe entrepreneurs walking the edge of apostasy. I have nothing against apostasy but when it's done in the service of disgusting, fraudulent pseudoscience for bucks, it's even worse than fanatical religion. Blech.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_I have a question
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Re: Question for bomgeography about the flood

Post by _I have a question »

bomgeography wrote:The church officially does not take a position on who the Nephites were


Yes, it does.
The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C. and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians.
https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/introduction?lang=eng
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Themis
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Re: Question for bomgeography about the flood

Post by _Themis »

The church's official position is that the flood was global. This means their position has to also be that These claimed migrations from the old world would make up most of the American Indians.
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_ClarkGoble
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Re: Question for bomgeography about the flood

Post by _ClarkGoble »

Themis wrote:The church's official position is that the flood was global. This means their position has to also be that These claimed migrations from the old world would make up most of the American Indians.


So far as I know the Church doesn't have an official position on the details of the flood. Although certainly most of the GAs that talked about it (primarily in the early 20th century) assumed a traditional view of the flood.

Much of the FARMS/Interpreter crowd I believe takes it as local for various reasons. (Both textual and obviously scientific since there's compelling evidence there wasn't a flood of the sort fundamentalists assume) Nibley's argument for a local flood was to say there's no way Noah could have known if it were global and he's just giving his perspective as being involved in it. The FARMS argument (can't recall where it's made) is based more upon the words used in Genesis and then some aspects of the documentary hypothesis.

Even for those in the early 20th century many saw rain as sufficient for a global flood. (As I recall - although I may be wrong - Talmage, Eyring, Widstoe took that position - don't have time to check)

The only real sustained engagement with it in recent works like the Ensign did take a global flood for granted and argued for it. That was written by Don Perry although I don't find his arguments persuasive obviously. Interestingly the Seminary manuals don't take a position on whether it was global. The Institute manuals are sadly largely unchanged from the early 80's and have lots of stuff in it that I'd consider fundamentalist and often outright wrong. It quotes John Taylor on how the flood could cover the mountains giving a speculation of a tidal wave. (Which of course makes no sense) The Encyclopeida of Mormonism, while not official tended to have been carefully vetted by Pres. Hinkley on such matters merely quotes Widstoe on it who notes the problems with a global flood and postulates the spectator view that Nibley promotes.
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Re: Question for bomgeography about the flood

Post by _Maksutov »

ClarkGoble wrote:
Themis wrote:The church's official position is that the flood was global. This means their position has to also be that These claimed migrations from the old world would make up most of the American Indians.


So far as I know the Church doesn't have an official position on the details of the flood. Although certainly most of the GAs that talked about it (primarily in the early 20th century) assumed a traditional view of the flood.

Much of the FARMS/Interpreter crowd I believe takes it as local for various reasons. (Both textual and obviously scientific since there's compelling evidence there wasn't a flood of the sort fundamentalists assume) Nibley's argument for a local flood was to say there's no way Noah could have known if it were global and he's just giving his perspective as being involved in it. The FARMS argument (can't recall where it's made) is based more upon the words used in Genesis and then some aspects of the documentary hypothesis.

Even for those in the early 20th century many saw rain as sufficient for a global flood. (As I recall - although I may be wrong - Talmage, Eyring, Widstoe took that position - don't have time to check)

The only real sustained engagement with it in recent works like the Ensign did take a global flood for granted and argued for it. That was written by Don Perry although I don't find his arguments persuasive obviously. Interestingly the Seminary manuals don't take a position on whether it was global. The Institute manuals are sadly largely unchanged from the early 80's and have lots of stuff in it that I'd consider fundamentalist and often outright wrong. It quotes John Taylor on how the flood could cover the mountains giving a speculation of a tidal wave. (Which of course makes no sense) The Encyclopeida of Mormonism, while not official tended to have been carefully vetted by Pres. Hinkley on such matters merely quotes Widstoe on it who notes the problems with a global flood and postulates the spectator view that Nibley promotes.


Nowhere in official church publications is a local flood taught. The global flood *is* taught, in the scriptures and at General Conference. It's also taught as a doctrine relating to the required baptism of the Earth. This is not something that Parry originated. It was taught by Joseph Fielding Smith (as a "Doctrine of Salvation", hardly trivial) for his entire life. No one in the First Presidency has ever contradicted him on this matter.

Like the literal Tower of Babel and the Garden of Eden, this is a fundamentalist Christian doctrine which the LDS church has unfortunately attached itself to. That is because Smith was a fundamentalist and there have been no active prophets since his time to provide continuing revelation that would clarify it. (They have been too busy adjudicating ear piercings and administering real estate holdings.) It is a doctrine, not a mere policy or teaching. Equivocation on this point is internet apologist sophistry, in my opinion.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Themis
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Re: Question for bomgeography about the flood

Post by _Themis »

ClarkGoble wrote:
Themis wrote:The church's official position is that the flood was global. This means their position has to also be that These claimed migrations from the old world would make up most of the American Indians.


So far as I know the Church doesn't have an official position on the details of the flood. Although certainly most of the GAs that talked about it (primarily in the early 20th century) assumed a traditional view of the flood.

Much of the FARMS/Interpreter crowd I believe takes it as local for various reasons. (Both textual and obviously scientific since there's compelling evidence there wasn't a flood of the sort fundamentalists assume) Nibley's argument for a local flood was to say there's no way Noah could have known if it were global and he's just giving his perspective as being involved in it. The FARMS argument (can't recall where it's made) is based more upon the words used in Genesis and then some aspects of the documentary hypothesis.

Even for those in the early 20th century many saw rain as sufficient for a global flood. (As I recall - although I may be wrong - Talmage, Eyring, Widstoe took that position - don't have time to check)

The only real sustained engagement with it in recent works like the Ensign did take a global flood for granted and argued for it. That was written by Don Perry although I don't find his arguments persuasive obviously. Interestingly the Seminary manuals don't take a position on whether it was global. The Institute manuals are sadly largely unchanged from the early 80's and have lots of stuff in it that I'd consider fundamentalist and often outright wrong. It quotes John Taylor on how the flood could cover the mountains giving a speculation of a tidal wave. (Which of course makes no sense) The Encyclopeida of Mormonism, while not official tended to have been carefully vetted by Pres. Hinkley on such matters merely quotes Widstoe on it who notes the problems with a global flood and postulates the spectator view that Nibley promotes.


A lot of church material is not created to answer this question, but to teach about Noah or some other doctrine. You don't get to write an article in the church's premier magazine whose sole purpose is to take the position of a literal global flood and literal tower of babel without the church leaderships approval. I suspect one or more of the brethren asked for it. It has been the only position of the church, so it stays that way until the church officially makes a new position.

Now I suspect the church will stay quiet, since it is not important to them to rock the boat. I also liked the local flood, but didn't think too much about it because it made no sense. It destroys the whole Flood story. Genesis is quite clear about things like all flesh or all humans. You don't need to take all the animals, and you don't need to take a really long time to build a big boat to escape a local flood.

The tower of babel is obvious fiction even for many Christians, but not for LDS because the Book of Mormon Jaredite story says it was real. Christians don't care, and it is obvious people wondered why people spoke multiple languages, although for literalists it explains how people were spread around the globe and had multiple languages after the flood when only 8 people were repopulating the world.
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_Maksutov
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Re: Question for bomgeography about the flood

Post by _Maksutov »

https://www.LDS.org/ensign/1980/09/the- ... e?lang=eng

Even a BYU professor of the history of science picks a fight with uniformitarianism...while dancing around the question of the global flood, his stance is repeatedly "antisecular" and "antiuniformitarian"...which I read as code for "global flood believer". Apparently he thinks that a parallel LDS universe exists where his delicate distinctions are substitutes for data. :wink:

"It is therefore helpful to remember, when pondering the millions of years secularists postulate to explain the formation of the earth, that all current geological dating processes are based on the assumption that the present order of nature preceded us and will continue uniformly hereafter. This secularist view also holds that God, if he exists, never has and never will interfere. However, the revelations Latter-day Saints have about the earth and God’s dealings with it simply do not permit us to make those assumptions. As Latter-day Saints we do not throw out the Genesis story—as so many secularists have done—nor do we regard scientists’ honest efforts to learn the truth as the work of the Adversary (though the Adversary does, of course, use those views to fulfill his ends). Instead, we would do better to wait patiently with faith in the scriptures until the Lord fulfills his promise to reveal at the beginning of the Millennium, “things which have passed, … things of the earth, by which it was made,” which, we are assured, will still be part of the “hidden things which no man knew” (D&C 101:32–33). Once the truth is known, all conflicts arising from part truths will vanish. In the meantime, scientists (including many Latter-day Saints) can continue to supply us with helpful knowledge about our present, mortal sphere, or even with ideas about how things might have occurred in the past if the processes under consideration really were uniform over the necessary length of time."
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_ClarkGoble
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Re: Question for bomgeography about the flood

Post by _ClarkGoble »

Themis wrote:A lot of church material is not created to answer this question, but to teach about Noah or some other doctrine. You don't get to write an article in the church's premier magazine whose sole purpose is to take the position of a literal global flood and literal tower of babel without the church leaderships approval. I suspect one or more of the brethren asked for it. It has been the only position of the church, so it stays that way until the church officially makes a new position.

I think we're equivocating over what it means to be church doctrine here. I suspect some brethren have strong positions on the matter and the practical politics of that mean some ensure their views get into some manuals. I don't think that makes it a doctrine of the church. i.e. I don't think the manuals always reflect the official teachings of the church. Indeed quite often they don't. (The D&C Institute manual is horrible in that regard for instance)

There have been times when the church has paid far more attention to what ends up in a book. While I don't think it reflects church doctrine either (except in a very loose way) from people who worked on the Encyclopedia of Mormonism Pres. Hinkley and others were very engaged in it partially to offset the 'authority' of books like Mormon Doctrine. To the Ensign I've simply known too many people who have worked on it or the manuals to think they always reflect doctrine. There is of course politics involved in it all.

The tower of babel is obvious fiction even for many Christians, but not for LDS because the Book of Mormon Jaredite story says it was real. Christians don't care, and it is obvious people wondered why people spoke multiple languages, although for literalists it explains how people were spread around the globe and had multiple languages after the flood when only 8 people were repopulating the world.

Well again it depends upon how to read these passages. If we read in a kind of fundamentalist way where all texts reflect a god's eye view without any error and as if written by one of our peers in a fashion to our regular communication then that's a problem. I'd just note that Ether is written by Moroni who has his own reading of the brass plates and his own assumptions about what it all means. That means we shouldn't just uncritically accept what Moroni says. Ether 1 doesn't even mention the Tower of Babel. (It just says great tower) That's in the chapter heading written by Bruce R. McConkie who tended to adopt a fundamentalist protestant way of reading these texts. All Mormon writes is that the language of the people was confounded. But what that means isn't clear. There are tons of ways to read Ether 1:33-36. One way common way of reading it is that it relates to textual writings. i.e. some event happened leading to a breakdown of a civilization center and these people were worried about being able to read their texts. The analogy would thus be closer to what happened to the Mulekites than the more extreme fundamentalist way of reading the Tower of Babel narrative.

Maksutov wrote:https://www.LDS.org/ensign/1980/09/the-gospel-and-the-scientific-view-how-earth-came-to-be?lang=eng

Even a BYU professor of the history of science picks a fight with uniformitarianism...while dancing around the question of the global flood, his stance is repeatedly "antisecular" and "antiuniformitarian"...which I read as code for "global flood believer". Apparently he thinks that a parallel LDS universe exists where his delicate distinctions are substitutes for data. :wink:

I can't speak for Nielson who I never had classes from. However a required class in science when I was there was ethics and religious issues in science and engineering. It had different teachers every few weeks. There even the very conservative CES guy in charge of the religion department taught in a way pretty open to science for evolution and such things. Paul Cox taught several classes and he's a rather famous evolutionist although he's no longer at BYU. Anyway, no one pushed a global flood including as I said the people from CES you'd most expect to push it. (I sadly took a D&C class from the professor who taught that section and unfortunately his religion class was a more stereotypical CES like class that I hated)

Of course since I graduated around 94 I've no idea what things are like now. My friends there say most things are much better but a few things are worse (they got rid of the honors department which frankly had the best religion classes).
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