Long lives of the antedeluvian patriarchs

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_ClarkGoble
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Re: Long lives of the antedeluvian patriarchs

Post by _ClarkGoble »

spotlight wrote:I can agree with this but it doesn't negate my point. If I would try to present data that contradicts someone's beliefs, the data necessary for the task is different for each individual who nurses a collection of disproved beliefs. While true for all people as you state, the LDS religion does have some commonly held theological beliefs and truth claims shared by all of its members, supposedly. The fact that this is not true in practice was referred to derisively as "cafeteria Mormonism" by one of my institute instructors years ago.


What those beliefs are tend to vary though. I'll be fully upfront and admit that CES staff's knowledge doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in trusting them. For too long they held to a rather naïve dogmatic set of expectations largely arising out of a limited selection of extra-scriptural writings (BRM, JFS to the neglect of all other figures) It's gotten better the last few years. My friends still at BYU say the religion department has improved dramatically since I was there. But the point remains while I agree there are core doctrines determining what they are can be problematic as there are different groups.

If religion is so fluid that it cannot be pinned down, then how can it be of any utility to its disciples?


That presupposes that the purpose of religion is primarily dogma rather than praxis. By and large from what I can tell the Church honestly doesn't care what you believe so long as you aren't doing certain things. Usually apostasy is seen less in terms of doctrine than in what one teaches and in how one teaches it. Even in what I'd call the core defining beliefs where one gets ones temple recommend from a Stake President most of the questions are questions of practices. Only a few are belief oriented and the questions are asked in a vague way where the responsibility is on the individual. So what it means to pay a full tithe, for instance, while talked about a fair bit, is ultimately the individual's responsibility.

My perception of Mormonism is that most of what the Church does is provide opportunities for service and ritual with the onus put on the individual to make use of it. We work out our own salvation. Even learning at church is, as someone put it at Church this morning, largely an adjunction to the teaching and learning that should be going on in our homes at our own discretion.

How can any make the claim that they are on the right path that leads to any promised blessings if something as common as diverse beliefs is capable of steering us down the wrong alleyway?


But ultimately within Mormon thought the only person who can tell if they are on the right path is the individual themselves. Now the rest of the community may give feedback but outside of stripping away priesthood blessings, we are expected to guide ourselves. We get a lot of feedback from the scriptures, from conference and the like. But responsibility is always on the individual. Further outside of broad guidelines regarding certain practices (honesty, chastity, etc.) and a few doctrines (atonement, etc.) we are expected to find out what to do by the spirit ourselves.

You're right that this comes with it risk of a sort. But I see that as a feature not a bug.

Being free to modify religious beliefs as one does their scientific theories with new knowledge that comes to light makes religion at some point along that path something other than "revealed religion." Or at the very least it makes that which is "revealed" so obscure as to be useless non-communication.


Again I see that as a feature not a bug. I see it as a strength that we recognize there are false traditions and we get wrapped up in them. The ability to discard something as false if well intentioned so that over time we correct is a good thing. As to whether things are too vague to be useful, again we have to unpack what we mean by useful. We have what we need to achieve the part of salvation we're responsible for right now. In the future as we individually progress we'll get more information. Undoubtedly some things we believe now we'll find out were wrong. But so what? So long as we can know if we're in the right path we'll get to the truth.
_Physics Guy
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Re: Long lives of the antedeluvian patriarchs

Post by _Physics Guy »

I'm a little perplexed to see Mormonism described as this fluid set of beliefs that everyone decides for themselves without being obliged to pin down. Mormonism may well be vague on some points but it seems to me that it has many more points of rigidity than most religions, because it seems hard to wiggle away from some pretty fundamentalist theories about the Mormon scriptures without undermining the prophet-hood of Joseph Smith. And without him as a great prophet, what becomes of all the practices that he and his prophetic successors instituted?
_ClarkGoble
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Re: Long lives of the antedeluvian patriarchs

Post by _ClarkGoble »

Physics Guy wrote:I'm a little perplexed to see Mormonism described as this fluid set of beliefs that everyone decides for themselves without being obliged to pin down. Mormonism may well be vague on some points but it seems to me that it has many more points of rigidity than most religions, because it seems hard to wiggle away from some pretty fundamentalist theories about the Mormon scriptures without undermining the prophet-hood of Joseph Smith. And without him as a great prophet, what becomes of all the practices that he and his prophetic successors instituted?


I think lots of things are core. I just think that what some portray as fixed really aren't - typically particular ways to read scripture. But I'd say things like Book of Mormon historicity, the reality of the atonement, real gold plates, a real resurrection and a lot more are all essential doctrines. Whether the flood was global or not isn't as can be seen in the variety of views of GAs on the subject.

Put an other way the issue isn't Mormonism being fluid but rather whether one particular view of Mormonism correctly represents Mormonism. (Largely put there by CES people adopting a fairly "literalistic reading" of scripture and largely following Bruce R. McConkie's and Joseph Fielding Smith's views and neglecting all other GAs)
_spotlight
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Re: Long lives of the antedeluvian patriarchs

Post by _spotlight »

Hi Clark,

You are allowing yourself to believe certain things based upon whether or not some general authority believes the same as you? So are general authorities useful or not? What establishes them as any sort of foundation when they can disagree with one another?

The issue here for me is you put heavy emphasis upon what you believe to be the witness of the spirit as I did when I was a member. But the one time I felt the witness the strongest was when attending a Paul H Dunn fireside when he was still telling lies.

Book of Mormon historicity is contradicted by DNA studies, anachronisms, incorrect flora and fauna, etc. The single biggest give away is the idea of slippery treasures in the Book of Mormon. That's a concept that existed once in the history of the world, in pirate lore.

Have you ever read any unbiased accounts of Joseph Smith? Do you simply label those that don't support your interpretation as lies? They don't come with the good feelings because they contradict the world view you wish to nurse. So you tell yourself that you know they are not true by the spirit?

For example:

Read chapter 17, the Hurlbut affidavits
http://www.salamandersociety.com/librar ... y_howe.pdf


And an account of Joseph sacrificing a dog here:
http://darkhistoryutah.blogspot.com/201 ... smith.html


And the Abraham cosmology at 8:20 is ludicrous:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvdqiTOf0PA&t=16s
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_ClarkGoble
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Re: Long lives of the antedeluvian patriarchs

Post by _ClarkGoble »

spotlight wrote:You are allowing yourself to believe certain things based upon whether or not some general authority believes the same as you? So are general authorities useful or not? What establishes them as any sort of foundation when they can disagree with one another?


Can't something be useful without being determinate?
_bomgeography
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Re: Long lives of the antedeluvian patriarchs

Post by _bomgeography »

It would not be the first time members have been deceived by members. Paul H Dunns deception was not as bad as other prominent examples of deception but was deception nonetheless.Having a testimony on the cornerstone of the church the Book of Mormon is much more important than placing a testimony on people. People error all the time nobody excluding Christ no man or women is perfect in this mortal life.


Doctrine and Covenants 28:11-12
11 And again, thou shalt take thy brother, Hiram Page, between him and thee alone, and tell him that those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me and that Satan deceiveth him;
12 For, behold, these things have not been appointed unto him, neither shall anything be appointed unto any of this church contrary to the church covenants.
_spotlight
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Re: Long lives of the antedeluvian patriarchs

Post by _spotlight »

bomgeography wrote:It would not be the first time members have been deceived by members. Paul H Dunns deception was not as bad as other prominent examples of deception but was deception nonetheless.Having a testimony on the cornerstone of the church the Book of Mormon is much more important than placing a testimony on people. People error all the time nobody excluding Christ no man or women is perfect in this mortal life.


Doctrine and Covenants 28:11-12
11 And again, thou shalt take thy brother, Hiram Page, between him and thee alone, and tell him that those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me and that Satan deceiveth him;
12 For, behold, these things have not been appointed unto him, neither shall anything be appointed unto any of this church contrary to the church covenants.


First point here is that if Jesus did not err then we have to take the flood of Noah as a literal global fact which is easily disproved by science. The contradiction here is sufficient to disprove the gospel in this instance. And we're done or we should be.

The point about Paul H Dunn was that when I listened to his lies, that was the time in my life when "the spirit was so thick you could cut it with a knife." In other words the so called witness of the spirit is something we invent ourselves and is not due to an external agent.

The point about the D&C verse you quoted simply bolsters the view that Joseph Smith was a con that did what he had to do to keep the power and control of his organization in his own hands without oversight by anybody.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_spotlight
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Re: Long lives of the antedeluvian patriarchs

Post by _spotlight »

CG wrote:Can't something be useful without being determinate?


How about a computer to guide a spaceship to the moon that is not determinant? Or a financial budget that is not determinant? Or a spousal relationship based upon agreements that are not determinant? I'm sure there are things in life that are not determinant that are desirable like the behavior of a pet dog but I would not want to base the direction of my life upon them.

The idea that the spirit treats each person and their testimony differently also works against the idea that the spirit is an outside agent. We'd expect everyone with their varied histories and understandings to create a plethora of individual experiences by which they are "converted" to the church. If the conversions were all identical that would suggest that maybe there was something real going on.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_bomgeography
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Re: Long lives of the antedeluvian patriarchs

Post by _bomgeography »

spotlight wrote:
bomgeography wrote:It would not be the first time members have been deceived by members. Paul H Dunns deception was not as bad as other prominent examples of deception but was deception nonetheless.Having a testimony on the cornerstone of the church the Book of Mormon is much more important than placing a testimony on people. People error all the time nobody excluding Christ no man or women is perfect in this mortal life.


Doctrine and Covenants 28:11-12
11 And again, thou shalt take thy brother, Hiram Page, between him and thee alone, and tell him that those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me and that Satan deceiveth him;
12 For, behold, these things have not been appointed unto him, neither shall anything be appointed unto any of this church contrary to the church covenants.


First point here is that if Jesus did not err then we have to take the flood of Noah as a literal global fact which is easily disproved by science. The contradiction here is sufficient to disprove the gospel in this instance. And we're done or we should be.

The point about Paul H Dunn was that when I listened to his lies, that was the time in my life when "the spirit was so thick you could cut it with a knife." In other words the so called witness of the spirit is something we invent ourselves and is not due to an external agent.

The point about the D&C verse you quoted simply bolsters the view that Joseph Smith was a con that did what he had to do to keep the power and control of his organization in his own hands without oversight by anybody.


From my experience and the experience of millions of others the spirit testifying of the Book of Mormon is an external agent.

I will not say that people can not be deceived by other external agents or their own desire and emotions but when realized those mistakes can be corrected.
_spotlight
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Re: Long lives of the antedeluvian patriarchs

Post by _spotlight »

bomgeography wrote:From my experience and the experience of millions of others the spirit testifying of the Book of Mormon is an external agent.

I will not say that people can not be deceived by ... their own desire and emotions but when realized those mistakes can be corrected.

That's the hope. :wink:
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
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