The Mystery of Godliness

[_bomgeography]

The punishment for rejecting Christ and his grace is eternal damnation.

What a loving God.....

God is loving in that he has given everybody a chance to obtain eternal salvation. It's only through Christ this can be done. If people purposely reject Christ the default answer is eternal damnation in the telestial or terrestial kingdoms. The lower kingdoms are still a glorified state. But only the celestial brings eternal progression.

If someone gets a lower kingdom it's because that's what they chose through their own personal choices. God is the last person who should be blamed.

[_honorentheos]

By choosing to follow Christ you are not paying Heavenly Father or Christ back.

D&C 19 states that a person who does not repent must suffer even as Christ suffered. If Christ suffered once to pay the price of sin as the hymn goes, what other reason is there for a person to suffer if not to repay Christ for what he had paid?

The natural repercussion of repentance is to follow the way that makes you a better person that would be to follow Christ and his example.

The act of repentence is described in Alma 42 as mandatory to satisfy justice. It doesn't say anything about making a person better through process. It says Justice has demands, and repentance is required to meet those demands. Your statement doesn't engage with this at all. I'm asking you to engage with the theology not offer Sunday School platitudes, please.

Grace is a free gift it cannot be bought or payed for. Those who think they earning there way into heaven are sadly mistaken.

Again, this is a nice saying but you yourself shared D&C 19 which clearly states there is a relationship between Christ's suffering as payment which, if not accepted, will require the unrepentant to then have to pay the debt themselves. There is a transaction taking place. It's not free if there is a transaction.

Good deeds are a natural outcome of following or trying to follow the savior. Good deeds do not cleanse a person from sin. Only the atonement can cleanse sin.

Isaiah 64:6
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

This doesn't seem to have anything to do with our points of discussion so far.

Again, I'm curious how you view the implications of Alma 42? Is Justice the supreme force in the cosmos that even God must conform to? And what are the implications for living in a creation where God could cease to be God if He fails to conform to the demands of Justice?

[_bomgeography]

D&C 19 states that a person who does not repent must suffer even as Christ suffered. If Christ suffered once to pay the price of sin as the hymn goes, what other reason is there for a person to suffer if not to repay Christ for what he had paid?

You can’t repay Christ for the atonement you can only use it. It’s a free gift. The reason why someone would suffer for their own sins is to meet the demands of justice after rejecting Christ. There is no verse is scripture that states you repay Christ for the atonement.

Again, this is a nice saying but you yourself shared D&C 19 which clearly states there is a relationship between Christ's suffering as payment which, if not accepted, will require the unrepentant to then have to pay the debt themselves. There is a transaction taking place. It's not free if there is a transaction.

If you know a scripture that contradicts the first answer please share. You can say what ever your opinion is on the atonement but when it contradicts scripture it has no weight to it. Its just anonymous persons opinion that contradicts what Christ taught. The reason why someone would suffer for their own sins after rejecting the suffering that Christ atonement accomplished is to meet the demands of justice not to repay Christ.

2 Nephi 26:27

27 Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men;

Again, I'm curious how you view the implications of Alma 42? Is Justice the supreme force in the cosmos that even God must conform to? And what are the implications for living in a creation where God could cease to be God if He fails to conform to the demands of Justice?

From what I can tell there are a couple things that God is bound to one is Justice the other is free agency. God cannot force anybody to use the atonement. The implications are is that god does not break rules that is why God is PERFECT.

[_honorentheos]

Here are the verses you shared earlier -
Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-17
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

Let’s replace Suffer = “X” and Repent = “Y”, God with “Z” and references to the received with “Q”

16 For behold, I, Z, have X these things for Q, that Q might not X if Q would Y;
17 But if Q would not Y Q must X even as Z;

If we replace these variable with the language of a common transaction –
X = pay
Y = accept the terms of a contract
Z = Dealer
Q = Buyer

We get the following –

16 For behold, I, the DEALER, have paid these things for the BUYER, that BUYER might not PAY if BUYER would ACCEPT THE TERMS OF THE CONTRACT;
17 But if BUYER would not ACCEPT THE TERMS OF THE CONTRACT, BUYER must PAY even as the DEALER;

The verse claims that Christ has taken ownership of the price of sin. You sinners are now obligated to do one of two things – accept the terms of the contract or pay. Since Christ has paid already, who then is being paid if one doesn’t accept the terms of the contract? Justice? How does that equal a free gift if there are strings attached?

If so, it seems we have to conclude there is something all-powerful in the Universe tied to this concept of Justice that rules over even God. It’s so powerful, so critical to the nature of Godhood that to fail to meet its demands would result in a God being stripped of their Godhood. You call God’s acceptance of this condition and compliance with these conditions – these rules – as evidence of His perfection.

Ok. So…who makes the rules then?

[_bomgeography]

Interesting theory honorentheos but if you can find a verse to support your theory I will be impressed. The theory of Christendom to inlcude Mormons is that people who reject Christ suffer for their own sins and not to pay back Christ.

The rules I see as eternal they have always existed. Other rules that God follows is not to sin.

[_honorentheos]

Interesting theory honorentheos but if you can find a verse to support your theory I will be impressed. The theory of Christendom to inlcude Mormons is that people who reject Christ suffer for their own sins and not to pay back Christ.

The rules I see as eternal they have always existed. Other rules that God follows is not to sin.

The verses are right out of the D&C. It's not glossing over what they are saying but actually reading the words as provided.

As to the rules being eternal - It’s an odd statement to make that the rules are eternal. Why? Because it’s basically extending the argument atheists make about the universe and just extending it out a level.

To the atheist, the universe exhibits conditions that are just the way things are. No one made them that way, we can’t change them, and for better or worse we work to discover them and utilize them.

You are saying this is how Godhood works. The cosmic background of eternity exhibits conditions that are just the way things are. No one made them that way, not even God can change them, and apparently God is in the business of discovering them and utilizing them. When you note that God can’t repeal agency, it gets to the point that God lacks the power to repeal agency because the laws are outside of His creation.

So, that’s an incredible claim if you’d take the time to think about it. Whether we are talking about a universe that is indifferent to humankind or a cosmos that exists independent of and apparently indifferent to godkind, it creates the same basic state for the atheist and the Mormon.

[_bomgeography]

They way you see and interpret those verses is different than the way I and all Mormons and Mormon doctrine you have no leg to stand on but your own opinion.

God was following the basic rules of the universe before he was god they existed before he existed. I'm sure your famailir with the often quoted quote that as man is god once was as god is man can become.

Free agency is a basic belief in that God can't force us to accept Christ. It was Satan that wanted to go against the basic law of free agency and force everybody to do his bidding.

[_honorentheos]

Put simply, does a person have to do anything - anything at all - to qualify for having the atonement applied to them?

[_bomgeography]

The atonement is free but as they repent they will want to naturally follow Christ example

[_honorentheos]

Back up and be clear. Does a person need to do anything - anything at all - to have the atonement applied to them?