The Mystery of Godliness

[_bomgeography]

Ok Gods plan required it but Christ gets nothing from people accepting his atonement. Wether nobody or everybody accepts his atonement, no matter what he was going to be perfected.There is no transaction it's a agreement.

I can't give Christ anything. I can follow him but that is different than giving him something of value. I would say the Isaiah verse is of value now.

Isaiah 64:6
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

[Guest]

Everything that Christ receives he receives from the Father

[_Choyo Chagas]

Here are the verses you shared earlier -
Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-17
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

Let’s replace Suffer = “X” and Repent = “Y”, God with “Z” and references to the received with “Q”

16 For behold, I, Z, have X these things for Q, that Q might not X if Q would Y;
17 But if Q would not Y Q must X even as Z;

If we replace these variable with the language of a common transaction –
X = pay
Y = accept the terms of a contract
Z = Dealer
Q = Buyer

We get the following –

16 For behold, I, the DEALER, have paid these things for the BUYER, that BUYER might not PAY if BUYER would ACCEPT THE TERMS OF THE CONTRACT;
17 But if BUYER would not ACCEPT THE TERMS OF THE CONTRACT, BUYER must PAY even as the DEALER;

The verse claims that Christ has taken ownership of the price of sin. You sinners are now obligated to do one of two things – accept the terms of the contract or pay. Since Christ has paid already, who then is being paid if one doesn’t accept the terms of the contract? Justice? How does that equal a free gift if there are strings attached?

If so, it seems we have to conclude there is something all-powerful in the Universe tied to this concept of Justice that rules over even God. It’s so powerful, so critical to the nature of Godhood that to fail to meet its demands would result in a God being stripped of their Godhood. You call God’s acceptance of this condition and compliance with these conditions – these rules – as evidence of His perfection.

Ok. So…who makes the rules then?

brilliant

then...
what is theology?
the science about godliness. the attributes of god --- please don't forget, there are many gods outside of judeo-christian one --- theology doesn't handle the members/believers; it handles only its (his/her) god/gods/goddess/goddesses...

then, what are the religious studies? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_studies)

Religious studies, alternately known as the study of religion, is the multi-disciplinary academic field devoted to research into religious beliefs, behaviors, and institutions. It describes, compares, interprets, and explains religion, emphasizing systematic, historically based, and cross-cultural perspectives.

While theology attempts to understand the nature of transcendent or supernatural forces (such as deities), religious studies tries to study religious behavior and belief from outside any particular religious viewpoint. Religious studies draws upon multiple disciplines and their methodologies including anthropology, sociology, psychology, philosophy, and history of religion.

pseudoscience, by all definition.
check!

[_bomgeography]

Everything that Christ receives he receives from the Father

John 16: 15.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you

We give Christ nothing we make an agreement to follow him. The righteousness we do by following him are filthy rags he gets nothing, from anybody who accepts him as savior.

Also if somebody rejects or accepts Christ they owe Christ nothing. It's a free gift. (See scripture) If somebody rejects Christ they owe justice and justice only.
They will be cleansed by there own suffering not Christ suffering. During this mortal life Christ suffering or atonement is given to any adult as an option for purification. According to Mormon children are covered under the atonement.

[_tapirrider]

Everything that Christ receives he receives from the Father

John 16: 15.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you

We give Christ nothing we make an agreement to follow him. The righteousness we do by following him are filthy rags he gets nothing, from anybody who accepts him as savior.

Also if somebody rejects or accepts Christ they owe Christ nothing. It's a free gift. (See scripture) If somebody rejects Christ they owe justice and justice only.
They will be cleansed by there own suffering not Christ suffering. During this mortal life Christ suffering or atonement is given to any adult as an option for purification. According to Mormon children are covered under the atonement.

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

bomgeography, you have spoken lies about me. Specifically you said that I hate America and you fabricated a lie about my avatar.

[Guest]

Tapir you say the Book of Mormon is racist. You say I'm racist because I believe in the Book of Mormon so when you call me a racist I say you are lying and misinterpreting the beliefs of Mormons. The Book of Mormon says that families from the Middle East traveled to the Americans and intermarried with the indigenous population that is part of the Book of Mormon record that is what millions of members to include me belief. To call this belief racist is ridiculous. It's offensive to me and to millions of Mormons. Mormons have helped millions of people all around the with out regard to race color or religion. Your claims that the Book of Mormon are racist is offensive. Last time I checked you are on a Mormon forum telling Mormons their beliefs are racist.

[_bomgeography]

I know you hate the church I assumed that you hated America too.

You say you do not hate America I'm glad to hear you do not hate your country and that you served in the military I can relate.

[_tapirrider]

I know you hate the church I assumed that you hated America too.

You say you do not hate America I'm glad to hear you do not hate your country and that you served in the military I can relate.

Are you going to address the lie about my avatar? It would be much better if you would simply deal with the two things I approached you with instead of throwing more accusations at me. Half answers with more accusations are not going to cut it. You do not "know" that I hate the church. I do not. I have strong positions against certain teachings in the Book of Mormon concerning racist ideas against American Indians. When it comes to the members of the church, I have no hate and in fact a tremendous amount of love for many fine and decent people that I am close to. I have no hate for my family, nor for my ancestors, some who were in Nauvoo. Each time you avoid the matter at hand, in this case, two simple points of dishonesty on your part, you end up making things worse for yourself.

Tapir you say the Book of Mormon is racist. You say I'm racist because I believe in the Book of Mormon so when you call me a racist I say you are lying and misinterpreting the beliefs of Mormons. The Book of Mormon says that a families from the Middle East traveled to the Americans and intermarried with the indigenous population that is what the Book of Mormon is a record of and that is what millions of memebers to include belief. To call this belief racist is ridiculous. It's offensive to me and to millions of Mormons. Mormons have helped millions of people all around the with note guard to race color or religion. Your claims that the Book of Mormon are racist is offensive. Last time I checked you are on a Mormon forum telling Mormons their beliefs are racist.

The Book of Mormon does teach racist ideas. I did not say that you, as an individual, are racist. I have strongly spoken that your writings are promoting and advocating a supremacist doctrine. They are. I have made no misinterpretation of 1 Nephi 13. The teachings found in that chapter clearly state that God's spirit was with the Europeans and His wrath on American Indians. It is the only scripture in the world that has canonized the Christian doctrine of discovery, a.k.a. Manifest Destiny. You are misrepresenting what I have said and have twisted it so that you can dishonestly say that I am making erroneous claims about the racist teachings found in the Book of Mormon.

If you are offended by truth, that is not my problem. When you misrepresent my words, you and I do have a problem with each other and we can resolve this with honesty and open communication to each other. Which forum are you referring to that I am accused of telling Mormons that their beliefs are racist? Could you provide a link? And why is this such a big deal to you? The Book of Mormon passages I have mentioned teach racist ideas and I have pointed that out on other forums.

But my post to you here is about your lies. It is quite frustrating that you only address one of them and then go off onto another round of accusations against me, leaving one of the two points I approached you with unanswered. Like I said, we need to communicate openly, honestly and as adults to resolve this.

[_bomgeography]

I could have sworn you have used the avatar with a native American riding a tapir.

Your name tapirrider fits the avatar really really well if not I will take your word for it.

You saying the Book of Mormon is racist is your opinion and its offensive to me and members of the church. You forget that Native Americans are Mormons too.

[_tapirrider]

I could have sworn you have used the avatar with a native American riding a tapir.

Your name tapirrider fits the avatar really really well if not I will take your word for it.

You saying the Book of Mormon is racist is your opinion and its offensive to me and members of the church. You forget that Native Americans are Mormons too.

I explained to you on an earlier post that I never used that avatar. It would have been appropriate for you to respond then instead of after many requests for you to deal with this.

The Book of Mormon does in fact teach racist ideas. That is not just my opinion, it is a fact. You really have no grounds to be offended by the truth. And you don't speak for the members of the church, you really don't even represent them, what with your statement that two apostles were in error in the Guatemala temple dedicatory prayers and your claims of Book of Mormon evidence contrary to the words of LDS prophets and apostles. But if any are offended because I speak out the truth about the racism in LDS doctrine that is their problem, not mine. I have a right to criticize the LDS scriptures just as citizens of the United States have a right to belong to whatever church they choose. But they don't have a right to be free from factual, truthful public criticism of their church's doctrine and teachings. They have a right to be free of that in their meetinghouses, temples and on LDS property but in the public arena they are not exempt from truth. If you are offended then get over it.

Some American Indians are Mormon, that doesn't mean anything. The majority are not and the general consensus among American Indians is that the Doctrine of Discovery, a.k.a. Manifest Destiny is a racist doctrine. It is also the general consensus among historians, the Jewish Anti Defamation League, the United Nations, the World Council of Churches, etc. It is even defined as being racist in the UN Declaration for the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, a declaration and policy which has been adopted by the United States.

Apologists have not addressed this matter that I point out in 1 Nephi 13. The church has not addressed it either. In years to come the church will need to deal with it. At this time the method of dealing with racism in the Book of Mormon is to argue that it isn't about skin color and that God loves everyone. But the fact is that skin color isn't even a factor of the racism in those verses in 1 Nephi 13 that I address. It has not been dealt with by the LDS church.