The Mystery of Godliness

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_Maksutov
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Re: The Mystery of Godliness

Post by _Maksutov »

bomgeography wrote:Native Americans are Mormon and read and study from its pages.


You think the Book of Mormon is a racist work of fiction. I believe it's an ancient record of the indigenous people of America. When I read and study its pages it brings me closer to Christ and my Heavenly Father.It does the same for millions of others who read its pages.

Are views are 180% out of sync. I will never convince you and you will never convince me.

The best we can do is agree to disagree with some sense of civility and respect


I won't ever respect your racist notions, McKane. No matter how you dress them in piety and lies. :wink:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_bomgeography
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Re: The Mystery of Godliness

Post by _bomgeography »

In life you can be defined by those who love you and hate you. Joseph Smith is one example.
Maksutov if you dislike me or hate me that would be a compliment
_honorentheos
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Re: The Mystery of Godliness

Post by _honorentheos »

bomgeography wrote:In life you can be defined by those who love you and hate you. Joseph Smith is one example.

Exactly. Like with the between two dozen and 50-something other women he "married" behind Emma's back (depending on one's preferred source) right? :wink:

For the record, I'm in the Todd Compton camp when it comes to siding with sources.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_bomgeography
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Re: The Mystery of Godliness

Post by _bomgeography »

Church history isn't exactly pretty. The question is was he commanded to restore polygamy. Based on my testimony of the Book of Mormon the answer to that question is yes.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: The Mystery of Godliness

Post by _Fence Sitter »

bomgeography wrote:In life you can be defined by those who love you and hate you. Joseph Smith is one example.
Maksutov if you dislike me or hate me that would be a compliment



Because members of the one true Church of Christ should define themselves by how others feel about them.

/boggle
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Maksutov
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Re: The Mystery of Godliness

Post by _Maksutov »

bomgeography wrote:In life you can be defined by those who love you and hate you. Joseph Smith is one example.
Maksutov if you dislike me or hate me that would be a compliment


I don't have any feelings for you. I don't know you. But I know what racism is and I see you promoting it and using religion to do so. So who or what you are doesn't really matter so much as that you are asserting it as fact when it isn't. And you do so repeatedly in the face of evidence, documentation, and more, so your dishonesty is also demonstrated. Other than that, I don't claim to know anything about you. But that's enough.

Image

Image
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_honorentheos
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Re: The Mystery of Godliness

Post by _honorentheos »

bomgeography,

When I was LDS, my view of God was of an all loving being whose plan was necessary for us to follow to be able to learn the exercise the attributes that we inherited from him. The need to enter into mortality was a part of this both for reasons related to becoming matter and spirit united (to form a soul in the language of the D&C) and because practicing them took desire. We had to discover a true desire to become like our Heavenly Father to be able to realize the potential that was only the germ of God that we were born within us. The Book of Mormon's lessons regarding the laws of restoration conveyed why the atonement was necessary - not as an analogy of gift or debt but because we were caught in a Catch-22. We had to be mortal where we'd screw up to be able to become like God, but by screwing up we become unclean and thereby can't become like God. The atonement was necessary to address this dilemma.

I thought all of this made sense...but I also was aware it wasn't a shared view among all LDS. I was prone to assume I was figuring something out that others might be missing. But the reality was the canvas of Mormonism is so blank, so open that it allows people to compose their own big picture of what it all means and be able to make it work. There will be scriptures that support it, GA who seem to be teaching it, prophets who more closely embodied it, and days when it seems like God was confirming it. But there were also scriptures that contradicted it, GA's who clearly had contradictory views, prophets who seemed very much of the mold of those who had different views of what the purpose of it all was, and many more days when the heavens seemed sealed for eternity.

It was onto this backdrop that the reality of history began to reveal itself for me.

If you wish to start somewhere near the roots of the tree if not chronologically for how I became aware of it, the biblical basis for the Church begins with a mythological story (Genesis) that the LDS faith takes literally and the Book of Moses calcified the traditional view of it being literally penned by Moses. This is contradicted at every turn by evidence. The creation myth is untenable, flood story impossible, Abraham is clearly a combination of mythological tales and likely not about a real person, etc., etc. It includes morally outrageous stories taught as virtuous lessons, and has caused conflict with science that is potentially dangerous to the species even today if we consider how it influences climate change denial.

On top of which, it's clearly written by multiple authors separated by centuries who were editing and reediting the text to make it comply with their particular needs and views.

There are serious issues with the origin of the New Testament and it's composition. There is practically no evidence for the resurrection of Christ, many reasons to doubt the sources we have regarding it, and much evidence suggesting the views that became Christianity were evolved over time from very natural processes concerning human thought. See this thread for just one of the many, many examples - viewtopic.php?f=1&p=970955

The Book of Mormon relies on a decidedly 19th c. understanding of the Judeo-Christian tradition that has been largely left behind by new discovery and evidence. And while Joseph Smith seems to have been very interested in the controversies of his time, these did not include text criticism, higher criticism, the documentary hypothesis, Deutero-Isaiah, the reality of what it meant when the Assyrian empire conquered the northern kingdom, or any other number of issues that are baked into Mormonism almost like early Mormonism was a prehistoric mosquito captured in amber with the mosquito representing the religious views of the time, and it's doctrines with the Book of Mormon being amber that flowed over these views and preserve them.

We see example after example around us of people with power and influence come to declare they have unique access to sexual activities and partners given by God or some other higher reason beyond the ken of we regular folk. This usually covers very ugly examples of people left hurt and humiliated around them. We don't blink when we find out because it's so commonly the result.

With all of this as context, I wonder why you think that Joseph Smith lying to Emma Smith about what he was doing sexually with other women was sanctioned by God?
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Themis
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Re: The Mystery of Godliness

Post by _Themis »

Themis wrote:
bomgeography wrote:What I find interesting is when ever I share the National Geographic article that proves native Americans have DNA from the Middle East it gets derailed by the Book of Mormon is racist.


What I find interesting is every time I share that this related DNA is tens of thousands of years old you keep ignoring this uncomfortable fact.


What a surprise, Bomgeography continues to ignore what destroys his argument about DNA. :rolleyes:
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_Fence Sitter
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Re: The Mystery of Godliness

Post by _Fence Sitter »

honorentheos wrote:"Snip"
With all of this as context, I wonder why you think that Joseph Smith lying to Emma Smith about what he was doing sexually with other women was sanctioned by God?


Great point and post honorentheos.


I have traveled a similar route as you, though with no where near the depth of study you have. As I now look at Mormonsim, suffice it to say that there is no area of theological belief or historical claim that is not problematic.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_tapirrider
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Re: The Mystery of Godliness

Post by _tapirrider »

bomgeography wrote:What I find interesting is when ever I share the National Geographic article that proves native Americans have DNA from the Middle East it gets derailed by the Book of Mormon is racist.


The National Geographic article provides absolutely no support for the Book of Mormon. It is dishonest of you to say that when you share it it gets derailed because of the racist teachings in the Book of Mormon. All of the times that you bring up that article, you are repeatedly informed that the dating and timeline does not fit the Book of Mormon. Why would you now try to pretend that your failure to tie that National Geographic article to the Book of Mormon is because I bring up the racist teachings found in the Book of Mormon and the supremacist doctrine that you try to advocate? The facts and truth are against you, just as they are clear that the National Geographic article has nothing to do with Book of Mormon or Biblical timelines.

After you fabricated lies about me and delayed responding to my request that we resolve the matter, and after a half-way attempt on your part to finally communicate with me about that, now you ask for civility and respect. I will say that I do not hate you and I don't accuse you as an individual of being racist. But you are promoting a supremacist doctrine with your wild claims and the Book of Mormon does in fact teach racist ideas that have no place in the 21st century, ideas which have influenced you.

The points that I care to criticize aren't about you as a person. I will speak out against the claims that you make, just as I will continue to speak out about the racist teachings in the Book of Mormon, particularly those teachings that the church and apologists have not addressed. And I will once again state to you, just leave the American Indians alone.
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