Benchmarking the Q15's performance...

[_mentalgymnast]

Mental Gymnast is in apostasy and openly preaching heresy.

- Doc

CFR.

Use my words on this thread...since you're bringing it up here apparently in response to something I've said.

If you are not able to show that what you are saying is true/accurate, I would like an apology. I don't like being called an apostate or heretic.

Calling you an apostate would be accurate.

It is getting rather tiresome to keep hearing/seeing people 'make stuff up'.

MG

bumping again...keeps getting lost among other posts...I want to make sure Doc sees it this time around. I realize he may be away doing something else, etc., so just keeping it at the 'leading end' of the posts/thread.

If I'm an apostate and/or heretic...I need to know. I may need to set an appointment with my Bishop.

[_Lemmie]

The irony. When the same poster recently "seriously questioned " what God would do when confronted with a soul who was a good person but nevertheless had left Mormonism, he was actually closer to Joseph Smith's doctrine than he is with the above renunciation of Mormon belief.

You just can't sugar coat this with platitudes about an all inclusive God. Anyone who tries to, is being deceitful.

It's an interesting issue, there do seem to be statements on the books for the Mormon religion that are quoted, used as references and used to support arguments, but even so it seems impossible to define what the official Mormon doctrine is.

How does one support Joseph Smith, but not support his words?

Question 1st. Do you believe the Bible?
Answer. If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does. For there are none of the religious sects of the day that do.
Question 2nd. Wherein do you differ from other sects?
Answer. Because we believe the Bible, and all other sects profess to believe their interpretations of the Bible, and their creeds.

Thanks for posting that quote, grindael. Agreed, Joseph Smith is not describing an all-inclusive god. It seems difficult if not impossible to continue to assert today that Joseph Smith is followed, and yet argue directly opposite doctrine, without in some way invalidating Joseph Smith's arguments. Doc's point about apostasy simply highlights the inconsistency.

[_mentalgymnast]

Mental Gymnast is in apostasy and openly preaching heresy. On doctrine it's no wonder he usually keeps his mouth shut when he's not talking about himself or moaning about others.

- Doc

It is interesting that folks would consider it heresy/apostate to quote the words of the prophet in regards to his 'openness' towards people of other faiths...I've posted a list of sources/quotes on this thread which demonstrate Joseph's liberal views.

And on top of that, to fault one...ummm, me...for saying that people of other faiths are doing the work of the Lord and/or are not 'broken'.

That's interesting if not a bit puzzling. Is my reasoning, expressed previously, somehow faulty? I don't think so.

I'm hoping to hear where DocCam was coming from in his earlier post. Maybe there something I need to repent of.

Regards,
MG

[Guest]

I read back through the thread, looking for quotes showing "the words of the prophet in regards to his 'openness' towards people of other faiths..." I didn't find any. I did find this:

Dallin H. Oaks to the youth of the Church.

Our first responsibility and purpose is to testify of Jesus Christ to a world that suffers to know of His divine mission. As my response to that great responsibility, I will speak about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the only true and living Church. In doing so I know I speak against the powerful tide of what is called “political correctness.”

The fashionable opinion of this age is that all churches are true. In truth, the idea that all churches are the same is the doctrine of the anti-Christ, illustrated by the Book of Mormon account of Korihor (see Alma 30). That account was given to teach us a vital lesson in our day.

Oaks

[size bolding added by me.]

[_mentalgymnast]

So when LDS missionaries come across people who are already producing good fruit, regardless of religion or lack thereof, they just congratulate them and move on?

If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.

I've commented enough on this statement peripherally/contextually to leave it at this point. I posted a list of things Joseph Smith said that show he was quite liberal in his views towards others and their religious beliefs.

Doc? Apology needed? Or am I an apostate/heretic?

----------------

Another thing I need to point out. Why it took me so long...who knows? Hey, it took me a while to learn that some people were 'making stuff up', so I guess I'm just a slow learner.

And that is...often times I will ask what I believe to be relevant/pertinent question(s) of someone and they will simply ignore it and wait for it to sort of disappear within the volume of the other posts that come after it. I can even come back to it later and ask again...and I'm invisible.

I'm not pointing at this time, this place, as being THE example of this happening. Although up to this point it is...

It happens quite often. I'm sure there's a reason for it. Oh, it might be that I ask stupid questions that don't even deserve an answer, right?

Anyway, just pointing that out as a point of interest. It isn't going by unnoticed, at least by me.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

I read back through the thread, looking for quotes showing [i]"the words of the prophet in regards to his 'openness' towards people of other faiths..."

A man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race. This has been your [the Twelve in England] feeling, and caused you to forego the pleasures of home, that you might be a blessing to others, who are candidates for [eternal life], but strangers to truth; and for so doing, I pray that heaven's choicest blessings may rest upon you.
-------------------
A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge.
-------------------
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.
-------------------
Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive.
-------------------
One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.
-------------------
I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself.
-------------------
We deem it a just principle, and it is one the force of which we believe ought to be duly considered by every individual, that all men are created equal, and that all have the privilege of thinking for themselves upon all matters relative to conscience. Consequently, then, we are not disposed, had we the power, to deprive anyone from exercising that free independence of mind which heaven has so graciously bestowed upon the human family as one of its choicest gifts.
-------------------
We ought always to be aware of those prejudices which sometimes so strongly present themselves and are so congenial to human nature against our neighbors, friends, and brethren of the world who choose to differ with us in opinion and in matters of faith. Our religion is between us and our God. Their religion is between them and their God. There is a tie from God that should be exercised toward those of our faith who walk uprightly. . . . It is without prejudice, but gives scope to the mind, which enables us to conduct ourselves with greater liberality toward all others that are not of our faith than what they exercise toward one another. These principles approximate nearer to the mind of God because they are like God or godlike.
-------------------
Be assured, sir, that I have the most liberal sentiments and feelings of charity towards all sects, parties, and denominations, and the rights and liberties of conscience I hold most sacred and dear, and despise no man for differing with me in matters of opinion.
-------------------
I believe that a religion is instituted of God and that men are amenable to him and to him only for the exercise of it unless their religious opinion prompts them to infringe upon the rights and liberty of others. But I do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men nor dictate forms for public or private devotion.
-------------------
We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our conscience, and allow all men the same privilege; let them worship how, where, or what they may.
-------------------
For all men are, or ought to be, free, possessing unalienable rights and the high and noble qualifications of the laws of nature and of self-preservation; to think and act, and say as they please...

From the D&C
“All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.”
( Doctrine and Covenants 137:7. )

Some of these involve a bit of 'reading between the lines'...others don't.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Mental Gymnast is in apostasy and openly preaching heresy.

- Doc

CFR.

Use my words on this thread...since you're bringing it up here apparently in response to something I've said.

If you are not able to show that what you are saying is true/accurate, I would like an apology. I don't like being called an apostate or heretic.

Calling you an apostate would be accurate.

It is getting rather tiresome to keep hearing/seeing people 'make stuff up'.

MG

[_honorentheos]

Let's agree that Cam's statement might have had a place in the McKonkie/Fielding Smith era of Mormonism but post-Hinckley? Far from it.

Heresy in Mormonism isn't about teaching big tent Christianity. It's barely something a person could seriously accuse ANYONE of these days. Unless someone can show how it would lead to people leaving the Church I don't think it's doing anyone any favors to engage this point seriously one way or the other.

[_Lemmie]

Let's agree that Cam's statement might have had a place in the McKonkie/Fielding Smith era of Mormonism but post-Hinckley? Far from it.

Heresy in Mormonism isn't about teaching big tent Christianity. It's barely something a person could seriously accuse ANYONE of these days. Unless someone can show how it would lead to people leaving the Church I don't think it's doing anyone any favors to engage this point seriously one way or the other.

I leave it to Doc to clarify, but I think his point was that it is difficult to argue that your church preaches tolerance toward all other churches when there are statements to the contrary within the canon. (It is noted that mentalgymnast is taking the apostasy charge personally, but the larger argument is what is interesting to me.)

For example, look at the Oaks quote on a previous page. It is from 2010, which is well into the post-Hinckley era, if I am understanding your comment about time-frame:

From an address delivered on June 25, 2010, at a seminar for new mission presidents:

I will speak about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the only true and living Church. In doing so I know I speak against the powerful tide of what is called “political correctness.”

The fashionable opinion of this age is that all churches are true. In truth, the idea that all churches are the same is the doctrine of the anti-Christ...

[_mentalgymnast]

Heresy in Mormonism isn't about teaching big tent Christianity.

Well, OK then. I think we are in a agreement here. But I also think the Big Tent is even bigger that you might imagine. And I've said some things along the way in this thread that may indicate where I stand on that.

I think the quotes from Joseph Smith that I've posted support my POV.

Regards,
MG

-------------------

Doc, man up. Come back and clarify/prove (through what I actually said) what you meant...or just apologize. That's a pretty big accusation you've made...calling me an apostate and heretic. I am neither.

You were 'making stuff up.'

Own it...or prove otherwise. enough' said.