Only one female speaker at General Conference this weekend

[Guest]

Ms. Jack has a degree from BYU and spent several years (4? 5?)on a 2 year Masters, so when she speaks, the thinking has been done!!!!

7, actually, for which I feel no shame; completing a master's degree while having a baby, divorcing a sociopath, and raising two disabled children alone is no small feat no matter how long it takes you.

And I encourage everyone to research these topics for themselves and do their own thinking on the subject. I don't encourage people to conduct Google searches looking only for the answer they want to hear.

[_MsJack]

Paul ABSOLUTELY does not qualify to be one of the 12 special witnesses of Jesus, since he was not one of Jesus' disciples SINCE THE BEGINNING OF HIS MINISTRY. So, was he an "apostle"? Yes. Was he one of the special 12? NO. Ms. Jack gets it right, AGAIN.

Paul talks about "we . . . apostles" and how they could have "asserted [their] authority" in 1 Thess. 2:6. Well, who the heck is "we . . . apostles"?

It says right in 1 Thess 1:1 ~ "Paul, Silas, and Timothy . . . "

So apparently Paul considered himself, Silas, and possibly Timothy to be "apostles." There was a much broader group of "apostles" than the 12, and Paul still regarded them as having apostolic authority.

[_Jersey Girl]

7, actually, for which I feel no shame; completing a master's degree while having a baby, divorcing a sociopath, and raising two disabled children alone is no small feat no matter how long it takes you.

BAM.
;-)

[_Rino]

7, actually, for which I feel no shame; completing a master's degree while having a baby, divorcing a sociopath, and raising two disabled children alone is no small feat no matter how long it takes you.

Can I ask an honest question? Why?

Why finish a degree that does you no good, does nothing to increase your economic viability in any real way? Particularly if you are going through a divorce, have two disabled children, and are alone? You did not know any of this when you started, but Classics is certainly not an income generator. My Classics professor went through a toll booth following her dissertation defense, and was castigated in Latin by the toll operator, who was angry she got a teaching job while he, also a Classics PhD, was working the tollbooth. True story. She admits she was incredibly lucky. Unbelievably lucky.

Is it really the Patriarchy's fault you have a Bachelor's that provides no real economic advantage? Is that anyone's fault but your own? Why not pursue a degree where you could actually get a job? You have a BA and an MA, but to get real employment you had to go to Community College. It just justifies the criticism of everyone who said never to major in the Liberal Arts. Why add a Master's that is economically useless? Certainly there is justification for learning for learning's sake, but when you have to put food on the table...? Did you do it to say you did it...? Was it worth it to put your future at risk/under debt to say "I have a Master's", if so...?

[Guest]

Paul ABSOLUTELY does not qualify to be one of the 12 special witnesses of Jesus, since he was not one of Jesus' disciples SINCE THE BEGINNING OF HIS MINISTRY. So, was he an "apostle"? Yes. Was he one of the special 12? NO. Ms. Jack gets it right, AGAIN.

Paul talks about "we . . . apostles" and how they could have "asserted [their] authority" in 1 Thess. 2:6. Well, who the heck is "we . . . apostles"?

It says right in 1 Thess 1:1 ~ "Paul, Silas, and Timothy . . . "

So apparently Paul considered himself, Silas, and possibly Timothy to be "apostles." There was a much broader group of "apostles" than the 12, and Paul still regarded them as having apostolic authority.

I agree, but they were not the special twelve witnesses and when those died off they were not replaced. In kind, Junius is an apostle in the same sense that Paul and Timothy were. They had special missions. But there was no "office" of an apostle as the Mormons claim, nor were their "Seventies". They were all Elders, Bishops (Overseers) and Deacons with some designated as "apostles". These were all "gifts" of the Spirit, not offices that people were ordained into. (EDIT: And yes, this is more nuanced than this, some were appointed to be "Overseers", Apostles, or Deacons, etc. But Paul makes it clear that these were Spiritual "gifts", and that was the qualification for the calling...

2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”

9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

[Guest]

Can I ask an honest question? Why?

Poor planning, youthful arrogance, FOO issues, and an inability to come to terms with how badly my marriage was hindering me.

I was 18 when I started the classics major and thought, at the time, I would go the MA-PhD route and teach. I believed all of the 80s / 90s Kool-Aid about how you can do anything you put your mind to, believe in the power of your dreams, play some "Dreams" by Van Halen in the background, blah blah blah. I started the master's track at TEDS still believing I would do that.

Midway through my master's, I got cold feet. At this point I was watching friends pursue the MA-PhD track, and most of them were struggling to find steady work. They were absolutely brilliant---not those idiots whose ability to have earned a PhD is astonishing---yet they were still traveling all over the country, pursuing adjunct work and having to switch jobs every 1-2 years. I realized that, even if I finished a PhD, I couldn't uproot my daughter every 1-2 years like that. Not with her disability.

I then decided to do an MDiv after my MA and pursue chaplaincy (which had better career prospects). That's part of the reason my MA took so long; I was taking classes to apply towards an MDiv at North Park. But we decided to try for baby #2 as I was (I thought) wrapping up my degree at TEDS. Our daughter was 6 and I felt like, if I waited for everything in my life to be perfect, the time was never going to be right. Unfortunately, my husband started his (emotional?) affair with his Mormon co-worker a few months after I got pregnant, then effectively abandoned us. I managed to wrap up my TEDS classes for good, but put the completion of the thesis on hold so I could return to work and take care of my daughter and unborn child. I almost certainly would have finished the MA in 2013 had my husband been financially and emotionally supportive during my pregnancy.

I don't consider my BA and MA to be "useless" though; I'm qualified for a number of promotions with my current employer simply because I have those, regardless of what they're in. I start a promotion later this month. I actually haven't given up on the dream of doing an MDiv and chaplaincy, but will be waiting until my children are older. What I tell the young people is to get some variety in their bachelor's degree. If you do a BA in liberal arts, do your minor in business, etc.

I have been dating my current BF for a little over a year now; where I go from here (and when) really depends on whether it works out with him.

I've never blamed "the Patriarchy" (a phrase that I have never used in my life!) for me having a liberal arts BA. Women in patriarchal religions are sometimes counseled to get a bachelor's degree "just in case" something happens to their spouse, but otherwise become stay-at-home moms. What I have tried to point out is that you will have a really, really hard time returning to any career path after many years out of it, so this advice is junk.

[Guest]

I agree, but they were not the special twelve witnesses and when those died off they were not replaced. In kind, Junius is an apostle in the same sense that Paul and Timothy were. They had special missions. But there was no "office" of an apostle as the Mormons claim, nor were their "Seventies". They were all Elders, Bishops (Overseers) and Deacons with some designated as "apostles". These were all "gifts" of the Spirit, not offices that people were ordained into.

Completely agree (though I assume your autocorrect changed "Junia" to "Junius"). Ordination is an anachronistic concept when we're talking about the beginnings of the church.

[_grindael]

(though I assume you meant your autocorrect changed "Junia" to "Junius"). Ordination an anachronistic concept when we're talking about the beginnings of the church.

No, that was just a typo.

[_zerinus]

Paul talks about "we . . . apostles" and how they could have "asserted [their] authority" in 1 Thess. 2:6. Well, who the heck is "we . . . apostles"?

Paul had many travelling companions as he went about preaching the gospel, which is what 1 These. 2 is referring to; but there is nothing to suggest that they had the same apostolic authority that he himself had. These are the verses you were referring to:

1 Thessalonians 2:

5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:
6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
7 But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:

Whereas he is uncompromisingly forthright in asserting his own Apostolic authority:

Romans 1:

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Romans 11:

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

1 Corinthians 1:

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

1 Corinthians 9:

1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

1 Corinthians 15:

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

2 Corinthians 1:

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

2 Corinthians 11:

5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

2 Corinthians 12:

11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

Galatians 1:

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Ephesians​ 1:

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians​ 2:

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Ephesians​ 4:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Colossians 1:

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

1 Timothy 1:

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

1 Timothy​ 2:

7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2 Timothy 1:

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Titus 1:

1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Likewise Peter spoke in the same authoritative fashion:

1 Peter 1:

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Peter 1:

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Peter​ 3:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

So now you know what you can do with your PhD, right?

It says right in 1 Thess 1:1 ~ "Paul, Silas, and Timothy . . . "

So apparently Paul considered himself, Silas, and possibly Timothy to be "apostles." There was a much broader group of "apostles" than the 12, and Paul still regarded them as having apostolic authority.

Making stuff up as you go along doesn't count.

[_MsJack]

5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:
6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
7 But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:

You know, the KJV was translated in 1611. It was good for its time, but manuscript recovery and knowledge of Greek and Hebrew in antiquity has come a long way in 400+ years. So you might want to check different translations from time to time:

NIV
5 You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed—God is our witness. 6 We were not looking for praise from people, not from you or anyone else, even though as apostles of Christ we could have asserted our authority. 7 Instead, we were like young children among you.

NRSV
7 though we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.

NET
7 although we could have imposed our weight as apostles of Christ

Berean Study Bible
6 although as apostles of Christ we had authority to demand it.

NASB
6 even though as apostles of Christ we might have asserted our authority.

So now you know what you can do with your PhD, right?

I don't have a PhD, just an MA. But you might as well call me "master," because it looks like I own you.