Only one female speaker at General Conference this weekend

[_zerinus]

You know, the KJV was translated in 1611. It was good for its time, but manuscript recovery and knowledge of Greek and Hebrew in antiquity has come a long way in 400+ years. So you might want to check different translations from time to time: ...

I gave you loads of alternative translations ​for the “Junia” verse, and you said that they were all “evangelical” translations​! Now you are telling me to look at alternative translations LOL! You might gain a bit more credibility if you made up your mind.

[_Lemmie]

You might gain a bit more credibility...

speak for yourself. You're the one with a credibility issue.

So now you know what you can do with your PhD, right?

I don't have a PhD, just an MA. But you might as well call me "master," because it looks like I own you.

Priceless.

Women in patriarchal religions are sometimes counseled to get a bachelor's degree "just in case" something happens to their spouse, but otherwise become stay-at-home moms. What I have tried to point out is that you will have a really, really hard time returning to any career path after many years out of it, so this advice is junk.

Couldn't agree more.

[_grindael]

1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off. (Acts 14)

Paul and Barnabus were appointed to their "apostolic" mission here (called by the "Spirit"). Paul is not called an apostle until after this, in verse 14:

But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this ...

Not at Jerusalem were they called, where Peter and the headquarters of the church were. Not by the special witness 12 were they called, but by the Prophets and Teachers of Antioch.

They were NOT the special witnesses that Jesus chose. They were simply called "apostles", because they were traveling messengers who had authority over many churches. Acts 15:

15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. ... 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

16 “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’—
18 things known from long ago.

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers

22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter:

The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell.

30 So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 32 Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers. 33 After spending some time there, they were sent off by the believers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. [34] 35 But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.

Lots of PROPHETS and lots of APOSTLES here, but they DID NOT replace any of the original 12 witnesses who were the original apostles except Matthias because of Judas. This is as plain as day, this church organization is nothing like Mormonism. Notice that it says in verse 2 that they were going to Jerusalem to "see the apostles". The Special 12 who were in charge of the Church. As Paul gained more authority, he was known as the "Apostle to the Gentiles". He gained as much prominence as the other Apostles, but he was never a special witness as they were, since he was not with the Lord "FROM THE BEGINNING" as they were. Apostle was a gift, as were prophets, teachers, etc.

1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life[a] was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake. Romans

Some people just don't understand what a timeline is, or what the hell context is and just love to ignore crap that doesn't fit in with their crazy interpretations. Paul was NEVER one of the 12 because he could NEVER qualify. But he was an "apostle" just like there were many "PROPHETS" running around in the early church (not just one old man who wouldn't know how to prophecy if his life depended on it).

Ms. Jack = 100
Zero = 0

[_DoubtingThomas]

Paul was NEVER one of the 12 because he could NEVER qualify. But he was an "apostle" just like there were many "PROPHETS" running around in the early church (not just one old man who wouldn't know how to prophecy if his life depended on it).

Paul probably had some mental disorder, another reason why he didn't qualify.

[_Chap]

You know, the KJV was translated in 1611. It was good for its time, but manuscript recovery and knowledge of Greek and Hebrew in antiquity has come a long way in 400+ years. So you might want to check different translations from time to time: ...

I gave you loads of alternative translations ​for the “Junia” verse, and you said that they were all “evangelical” translations​! Now you are telling me to look at alternative translations LOL! You might gain a bit more credibility if you made up your mind.

To be blunt, the only thing that matters is the Greek. If you have a beef about what the text says about Junia, that's what you have to start talking about. The KJV isn't very relevant to a 21st century discussion.

Start chewing on this:

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 16:71881 Westcott-Hort New Testament (WHNU)

7 ασπασασθε ανδρονικον και ιουνιαν τους συγγενεις μου και συναιχμαλωτους μου οιτινες εισιν επισημοι εν τοις αποστολοις οι και προ εμου γεγοναν εν χριστω

And once you have analysed the grammar and vocabulary, if you want to know what the text is likely to have meant to its writer and its readers, start looking at the kind of early quotes and comments cited earlier in this thread, taken from the time when most Christians wrote and spoke in Greek.

And what direction do they generally point in as to what early Greek-speaking Christians reading this text thought about the gender of Junia? Oh, right ...

[_grindael]

He [PAUL] also told woman to cover up their stupid heads in church (like the Muslims!); and if they have any​ stupid questions to ask, that they should ask it of their stupid husbands at home, and not waste everybody’s time in church; and that if they were not already married, it would be best for them not to get married at all! Were those added by somebody else as well? What else was added, do you think, that we didn’t know about? And if he got all of that wrong, how can we be sure that he didn’t get the doctrine of justification wrong?

Then he goes on to try and prove his point by quoting.... PAUL!

Can anyone really be this stupid? Yes, yes they can. Zero is doing a bang up job here.

Chap... you ought to know that Mormons don't do well with Greek... especially their "prophets"... http://www.mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm

[_zerinus]

I don't have a PhD, just an MA. . . .

Whatever you have is useless if there is no brains behind it, which appears to be the case here.

[_Tator]

Whatever you have is useless if there is no brains behind it, which appears to be the case here.

Well zerinus you have pissed me off. I guess you want some kind of fight, right?


Take your garmies off and beat the crap out them, because you and your church are full of crap.

[_Chap]

I don't have a PhD, just an MA. . . .

Whatever you have is useless if there is no brains behind it, which appears to be the case here.

Go and do something else for a while, zerinus, and come back when you've calmed down. You are becoming so worked up that you are starting to look silly.

MsJack may be wrong - that is always possible (though in this case I suspect she probably isn't). But when you say, in effect, that she is of defective intellect, or ignorant, or undereducated, or whatever it is you are trying to suggest, it is your credibility that suffers, not hers. She is clearly none of those things.

[_Rino]

Poor planning, youthful arrogance, FOO issues, and an inability to come to terms with how badly my marriage was hindering me.

I was 18 when I started the classics major and thought, at the time, I would go the MA-PhD route and teach. I believed all of the 80s / 90s Kool-Aid about how you can do anything you put your mind to, believe in the power of your dreams, play some "Dreams" by Van Halen in the background, blah blah blah. I started the master's track at TEDS still believing I would do that.

Midway through my master's, I got cold feet. At this point I was watching friends pursue the MA-PhD track, and most of them were struggling to find steady work. They were absolutely brilliant---not those idiots whose ability to have earned a PhD is astonishing---yet they were still traveling all over the country, pursuing adjunct work and having to switch jobs every 1-2 years. I realized that, even if I finished a PhD, I couldn't uproot my daughter every 1-2 years like that. Not with her disability.

I then decided to do an MDiv after my MA and pursue chaplaincy (which had better career prospects). That's part of the reason my MA took so long; I was taking classes to apply towards an MDiv at North Park. But we decided to try for baby #2 as I was (I thought) wrapping up my degree at TEDS. Our daughter was 6 and I felt like, if I waited for everything in my life to be perfect, the time was never going to be right. Unfortunately, my husband started his (emotional?) affair with his Mormon co-worker a few months after I got pregnant, then effectively abandoned us. I managed to wrap up my TEDS classes for good, but put the completion of the thesis on hold so I could return to work and take care of my daughter and unborn child. I almost certainly would have finished the MA in 2013 had my husband been financially and emotionally supportive during my pregnancy.

I don't consider my BA and MA to be "useless" though; I'm qualified for a number of promotions with my current employer simply because I have those, regardless of what they're in. I start a promotion later this month. I actually haven't given up on the dream of doing an MDiv and chaplaincy, but will be waiting until my children are older. What I tell the young people is to get some variety in their bachelor's degree. If you do a BA in liberal arts, do your minor in business, etc.

I have been dating my current BF for a little over a year now; where I go from here (and when) really depends on whether it works out with him.

I've never blamed "the Patriarchy" (a phrase that I have never used in my life!) for me having a liberal arts BA. Women in patriarchal religions are sometimes counseled to get a bachelor's degree "just in case" something happens to their spouse, but otherwise become stay-at-home moms. What I have tried to point out is that you will have a really, really hard time returning to any career path after many years out of it, so this advice is junk.

Ok, let me get this straight...you have a degree from BYU that is not paying the bills, you have a special needs child, the American economy has suffered the most catastrophic crash since the Great Depression, [violation of Universal Rule #7 deleted], and at this point you decide that maybe an MA from TEDS, or maybe an MDiv, is the right idea...? None of that makes any logical sense. And when you have the above...you should, it is not required but a really good idea, try to clean up first and then pursue something additional. Again, this is the whole litany of grievances against millennials coming back in full force, only this time with justification.

It is not that the kool-aid about following your dreams is false, it is that being a adult comes with trade-offs. If you want a PhD in Classics, you better be willing to forego children, get good enough grades to secure outside funding, not get involved in a bad or even complicated marriage first.

And, yes, your degrees are, relatively, worthless. The fact that the government will accept anything up to, and including, a for-profit diploma mill degree, means little. That is why it is government, it's the last refuge of the unemployable. I had a guy tell me how his MBA from the U of Phoenix was his ticket to the big leagues. I shook my head and said nothing because...what is there to say? He's a great guy, but he's barely literate and an idiot, but he made a 3.8 at the U of Phoenix. He's now in government. Lower middle management, but in government.

It's the multiple glaring contradictions that makes this so nonsensical. And after being in a bad marriage where you nevertheless tried to pursue unwise dreams and illogical pursuits, you are basing your future around your boyfriend situation...? I do not know if this is feminism, but maybe our definitions are different?

As for the patriarchy... [violation of Universal Rule #7 deleted] And so on...