The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

[_zerinus]

Nope. You don't know much about the history of technology, do you? Many innovations seem obvious once you have them - but only then.

And in any case, the fact that Jacob says nothing whatsoever about oil (which is the main reason for raising olives, rather than eating them), considers it unusual that a cultivated olive should taste bitter (as they all do) and seems to think that the olive is some kind of fruit that can be eaten like an apple without elaborate preparation is fatal to any idea that Jacob is from an olive-using culture.

Still, kudos for maintaining your faith in the face of all evidence and logic. That's really the point for you, isn't it?

Your​ are talking an awful lot of BS as usual, not worth giving a detailed reply to.

[_Chap]

Nope. You don't know much about the history of technology, do you? Many innovations seem obvious once you have them - but only then.

And in any case, the fact that Jacob says nothing whatsoever about oil (which is the main reason for raising olives, rather than eating them), considers it unusual that a cultivated olive should taste bitter (as they all do) and seems to think that the olive is some kind of fruit that can be eaten like an apple without elaborate preparation is fatal to any idea that Jacob is from an olive-using culture.

Still, kudos for maintaining your faith in the face of all evidence and logic. That's really the point for you, isn't it?

Your​ are talking an awful lot of BS as usual, not worth giving a detailed reply to.

One rebuke from zerinus, and all my arguments evaporate ... I am covered in confusion.

[_Chap]

So - that about wraps it up, doesn't it?

Jacob 5 is clearly not written on the basis of knowledge of the cultivation, processing and utilisation of the products of the olive tree in pre-exilic Israel (i.e. ancient Israel as it was before Lehi's party supposedly went to the Americas), or any other place or time for that matter - my favourite being the fact that the writer thinks that only wild trees bear bitter olives. LOL!

See this video of a woman who has only eaten prepared olives trying to eat one fresh from the tree in an olive grove:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdebMkmItQQ

Faced with the multiple pieces of evidence pointing to the conclusion stated above, zerinus can only stamp his foot and shout "They did SO have grafting!!" or simply "NOT TRUE!!!".

Anything else we need to consider here to give fair consideration to this particular question?

And if one part of the Book of Mormon is clearly NOT God-given, which appears to be the case with Jacob 5, what hope for the rest?

[_Xenophon]

And that's where I would disagree. What matters...primarily... is whether or not the five or so arguments that the critics have come with against the Book of Mormon are 'thick' or 'thin'. That's pretty much been my emphasis/question in mind throughout the thread.

I have come away from this thread unchanged in my mind that they are thin in regards to being able to explain the Book of Mormon in totality.

It surprises no one on this thread that when you start with straw men of five arguments against the Book of Mormon you are unconvinced by those caricatures.

[_Lemmie]

To suggest an ancient culture and civilization stretching back many thousands years, long before even the Israelites came into existence, who had learned to cultivate fruit trees of various kinds including (especially) the olive tree, whose product was such an important staple of their experience (not just for food, but for illumination and other purposes as well), had not figured out tree grafting until the Greeks came along stretches the imagination quite a bit.

zerinus uses this logical fallacy quite often in his arguments. No reasoning is used, just a variation on the fallacy of alleged certainty.

Description: Asserting a conclusion without evidence or premises, through a statement that makes the conclusion appear certain when, in fact, it is not. Logical Form: Everybody knows that X is true.

[_Xenophon]

zerinus uses this logical fallacy quite often in his arguments. No reasoning is used, just a variation on the fallacy of alleged certainty.

Description: Asserting a conclusion without evidence or premises, through a statement that makes the conclusion appear certain when, in fact, it is not. Logical Form: Everybody knows that X is true.

Unfortunately MG has been falling back on that this thread too. Several times he has asserted that there if there is ancient influence in the writing Book of Mormon it must be from an ancient source. Ignoring entirely any attempt to point out that ancient influence can be added in a modern time.

[_honorentheos]

To suggest an ancient culture and civilization stretching back many thousands years, long before even the Israelites came into existence, who had learned to cultivate fruit trees of various kinds including (especially) the olive tree, whose product was such an important staple of their experience (not just for food, but for illumination and other purposes as well), had not figured out tree grafting until the Greeks came along stretches the imagination quite a bit.

And yet it's infinitely more reasonable than to suggest a culture and civilization that covered a continent possessing advanced old world technologies, proto-Christian beliefs, military advances and old world diseases disappeared so completely even their genetic fingerprints are lost to us.

But here you are.

[_spotlight]

And this gem is wonderful:

When the waters of the Flood had receded, the first sign of dry land was an “olive leaf” plucked by a dove:

It's in the Bible so it must be true!
Yep the olive tree survived being buried in salt water for months and was in perfect health as soon as the water receded still covered with leaves and all!
God gave the leaves gills for the flood event apparently.

[_honorentheos]

And this gem is wonderful:

When the waters of the Flood had receded, the first sign of dry land was an “olive leaf” plucked by a dove:

It's in the Bible so it must be true!
Yep the olive tree survived being buried in salt water for months and was in perfect health as soon as the water receded still covered with leaves and all!
God gave the leaves gills for the flood event apparently.

I kinda figured it would be a waste of time trying to discuss the Documentary Hypothesis and authorship issues related to the scriptures zerinus quoted with him. He seems like a young earth type, biblical literalist.

[_zerinus]

And yet it's infinitely more reasonable than to suggest a culture and civilization that covered a continent possessing advanced old world technologies, proto-Christian beliefs, military advances and old world diseases disappeared so completely even their genetic fingerprints are lost to us.

But here you are.

When losing the argument, change the subject.