The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

[_Themis]

I know that I did mention, something to the effect, that I believe the possibility exists that there is a greater likelihood that agnostic/atheists may not find that lying is a sin in the sense that God is holding them accountable for telling the truth, etc. That they might find it easier to twist the truth and/or omit facts, etc.

Maybe, but even they tend to view it as bad. Funny thing about lying is that your average person doesn't engage in it unless they have some motivation to do so. I have found religious people easily engaging in lying due to obvious motivations to do so. Joseph Smith was one of the biggest liars. He even made it part of the religion of lying for the Lord. I suspect that is one less area agnostics and atheists feel any motivation to lie.

[_mentalgymnast]

I know that I did mention, something to the effect, that I believe the possibility exists that there is a greater likelihood that agnostic/atheists may not find that lying is a sin in the sense that God is holding them accountable for telling the truth, etc. That they might find it easier to twist the truth and/or omit facts, etc.

Maybe, but even they tend to view it as bad. Funny thing about lying is that your average person doesn't engage in it unless they have some motivation to do so. I have found religious people easily engaging in lying due to obvious motivations to do so. Joseph Smith was one of the biggest liars. He even made it part of the religion of lying for the Lord. I suspect that is one less area agnostics and atheists feel any motivation to lie.

As I've mentioned recently, it took me a while to even entertain the thought that some folks on this board would/could intentionally lie and/or make stuff up. I was a bit naïve. And even though I've taken some flak for it recently...on another thread...that's why I've felt the need to completely block/ignore the postings of two people. I became tired of them making stuff up and creating a straw man argument as a foundational reason for then 'coming in for the kill' and attack the messenger.

Not that they are the only two people that engage in this behavior.

I believe that it's easier for someone who doesn't think/believe that they are accountable to God for the things they say or do to 'make stuff up' and then have very little remorse or conscience for doing so.

I consider it amoral.

It is difficult to protect/defend oneself against that. It's also difficult to carry on a productive conversation when there are lies and false innuendos being thrown into the mix by someone who has little or no compunction about doing so.

You said that even an agnostic/atheist would see lying as bad. I question that. Not if the end justifies the means.

Regards,
MG

[_Sanctorian]

You said that even an agnostic/atheist would see lying as bad. I question that. Not if the end justifies the means.

Regards,
MG

What ends would an atheist/agnostic gain from lying about Mormonism?

[_mentalgymnast]

You said that even an agnostic/atheist would see lying as bad. I question that. Not if the end justifies the means.

Regards,
MG

What ends would an atheist/agnostic gain from lying about Mormonism?

Not being an agnostic/atheist it is hard for me to get inside your mind. I would have to ask you what you might gain by lying and/or making stuff up in regards to either Mormons or the LDS Church and its leaders?

My guess is that you might and/or would say, "Nothing".

What I'm saying/proposing is that lying would potentially come easier and with less regret for an agnostic/atheist. What the particulars are would be rather obvious as the lying is 'in play'. There have been many times when I've pointed out folks making stuff up or outright lying on this board.

You have noticed that, haven't you?

Regards,
MG

[_Chap]

Funny thing about lying is that your average person doesn't engage in it unless they have some motivation to do so. I have found religious people easily engaging in lying due to obvious motivations to do so. Joseph Smith was one of the biggest liars. He even made it part of the religion of lying for the Lord. I suspect that is one less area agnostics and atheists feel any motivation to lie.

Er, yes. Imagine you are a member of a religion with, to put it mildly, a large number of problems with the lack of correspondence between its beliefs about the world, and the actual evidence against which those beliefs can be tested.

On the other hand, your religion teaches you that, despite all the evidence against it, you can gain an absolute assurance that the religion in question is correct in its assertions about the world.

To put it at its most charitable, given that absolute assurance, might you not feel a little bit of temptation to cut a few corners in dealing with some of the more intractable features of the real-world evidence? After all, what harm can it do if it helps others to find their way to the truth, of which you have complete assurance independent of the dull old worldly evidence?

Why yes, I do believe you might.

[_Sanctorian]

MG,

I have nothing to gain from lying about Mormonism. You are correct. And yet, you seem to think I am lying about my experiences in Mormonism.

I'll take a stab at what I think you might gain from thinking I'm (and others) lying on this board - to protect YOUR narrative. You suggested I'm a chronic weed user (I'm not), an alcoholic (I'm not), on meds (I'm not) and a liar (I have one major rule with my kids, if they tell the truth, I won't get upset at them no matter what it was).

So I ask again, what could I possibly gain from lying about my experiences on this board?

[Guest]

There have been many times when I've pointed out folks making stuff up or outright lying on this board.

You have noticed that, haven't you?

It's amazing how many people mentalgymnast thinks are liars. In fact, every time he is disagreed with he pronounces the other person a liar! Every time his intellectual dishonesty pointed out, he concludes the other person is a liar! It's a statistical miracle that literally every person mentalgymnast interacts with eventually turns out to be a liar!

Could it be possible that the liar! is the one who stereotypes all agnostics and atheists as more likely to lie?

I believe that it's easier for someone who doesn't think/believe that they are accountable to God for the things they say or do to 'make stuff up' and then have very little remorse or conscience for doing so.

I consider it amoral.

How curious that mentalgymnast needs to feel he is being watched by a god in order to feel remorse for lying. One would think that something like not harming other people, or maintaining personal integrity would be an incentive. Who knows what mentalgymnast might do if he wasn't afraid of being punished in the afterlife by that supernatural being who spies on him?

Speaking of feeling remorse for lying, mentalgymnast could start by retracting the lies he told about Sanctorian and answer this question he's been evading:

MG,

I have nothing to gain from lying about Mormonism. You are correct. And yet, you seem to think I am lying about my experiences in Mormonism.

I'll take a stab at what I think you might gain from thinking I'm (and others) lying on this board - to protect YOUR narrative. You suggested I'm a chronic weed user (I'm not), an alcoholic (I'm not), on meds (I'm not) and a liar (I have one major rule with my kids, if they tell the truth, I won't get upset at them no matter what it was).

So I ask again, what could I possibly gain from lying about my experiences on this board?

[Guest]

Irony. When a member of a church that engages in systematic "lying for the lord", recasting of the narrative, and whitewashing, accuses others of being dishonest. And calls it amoral. Is the church then amoral?

I make stuff up when engaging in argumentum ab adsurdum. It is obviously made up. But is is very useful in showing that my absurd claims are a verifiable and falsifiable as the religious claims. Outside of that, I am honest with my experiences in Mormonism. Mg, address the claims rather the the claimant.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I'm just going to quote myself from Sanctorian's other breakout thread:

People lie for all sorts of reasons. I think on a board like this it's to establish credibility so one's opinion is taken seriously. For example we have Bach, who regularly claims to be a millionaire businessman employing x-number of people. Despite him not being able to keep his story straight, and being about as dumb and unreadable as LDSFATs, he sticks to his schtick so he can troll the forum with Trumpy observations about Leftists specifically and politics in general. If we knew his in real life identity, and that in fact he's a barely literate semi-employed old ____ ing Mormoron priesthood yokel, he would be cast in a different light.

MG regularly lies about his motivation for posting here and defines himself as an open-minded centrist ideally to give his schtick some legs when towing the party line and derailing thread after thread. Seeking catharsis for personal impotence is motivation enough for our TBM fanatic.

- Doc

I mean MG lies about all sorts of stuff constantly just so he can get attention. Frankly, I've never seen such a pathologically inclined liar in the entirely of my Internetting history. I'm inclined to believe there's something about Mormonism's weird relationship with honesty and something about Utah's culture that produces people like MG who are so comfortable with dishonesty that it's possible they really don't understand, on a fundamental level, that their behavior is immoral, untrustworthy, and off-putting to such a degree that if they existed anywhere else outside their bubble they'd be a pariah. It's “F” ing weird.

- Doc

[_Maksutov]

I mean MG lies about all sorts of stuff constantly just so he can get attention. Frankly, I've never seen such a pathologically inclined liar in the entirely of my Internetting history. I'm inclined to believe there's something about Mormonism's weird relationship with honesty and something about Utah's culture that produces people like MG who are so comfortable with dishonesty that it's possible they really don't understand, on a fundamental level, that their behavior is immoral, untrustworthy, and off-putting to such a degree that if they existed anywhere else outside their bubble they'd be a pariah. It's ____ ing weird.

- Doc

+1,000