The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?

[_SteelHead]

Look at DCP's latest 1827 first vision "assertions" as an example of this behavior. If it promotes the faithful narrative, reality need not apply.

[_Sanctorian]

Look at DCP's latest 1827 first vision "assertions" as an example of this behavior. If it promotes the faithful narrative, reality need not apply.

This. The ONLY way the church can be remotely what it claims is by lying or creating a false narrative.

[_Themis]

As I've mentioned recently, it took me a while to even entertain the thought that some folks on this board would/could intentionally lie and/or make stuff up. I was a bit naïve. And even though I've taken some flak for it recently...on another thread...that's why I've felt the need to completely block/ignore the postings of two people. I became tired of them making stuff up and creating a straw man argument as a foundational reason for then 'coming in for the kill' and attack the messenger.

Not that they are the only two people that engage in this behavior.

It's a lot more complicated, and I doubt these people think they are being dishonest, and probably think you are. That's the nature of discussions with people who may view each other as adversaries.

I believe that it's easier for someone who doesn't think/believe that they are accountable to God for the things they say or do to 'make stuff up' and then have very little remorse or conscience for doing so.

I consider it amoral.

Maybe, but I don't see much evidence atheists/agnostics are amoral. Morality is not something that comes from God. Atheists have lower numbers in prisons, so I wouldn't suggest they don't have any sense of right and wrong. The motivation you ascribe to above is simple minded fear God will punish you if you don't do what others claim God told them. There are way better reasons people have for doing the right thing, and when it comes to lying , religious people do so quite a bit when motivated. You ignore by best example of someone(Joseph Smith) who lied a lot to hide his activities. He even justified it with lying for the Lord. Funny how people, religious or not, can justify lying. Also, why is it that countries with the largest secular populations have the least number of criminals and are the highest ranking countries in terms of well-being?

You said that even an agnostic/atheist would see lying as bad. I question that. Not if the end justifies the means.

The end justifying the means is Mormon doctrine of lying for the Lord. In the end religious people engage in it quite frequently. God watching you and waiting to punish you for wrong doing is the lowest level of controlling the population, and there are way better reasons people, religious or not, do the right thing. Empathy which is a human trait is one reason people do the right thing even though it may not benefit them, or even cost them some benefit. Coming home from a walk last year I found a wallet with over a hundred dollars. Now being an agnostic with atheist leanings I had no sense of God would punish me if I took the money, but instead I spend a couple of hours to find and drive the wallet to the home of the person it belonged to. Why?

[_Res Ipsa]

Not being an agnostic/atheist it is hard for me to get inside your mind. I would have to ask you what you might gain by lying and/or making stuff up in regards to either Mormons or the LDS Church and its leaders?

My guess is that you might and/or would say, "Nothing".

What I'm saying/proposing is that lying would potentially come easier and with less regret for an agnostic/atheist. What the particulars are would be rather obvious as the lying is 'in play'. There have been many times when I've pointed out folks making stuff up or outright lying on this board.

You have noticed that, haven't you?

Regards,
MG

Cool story, bro. Let me tell you another.

"The ends justify the means" is a relative calculus that tries to compare the importance of the ends with the less than worthy act of the means. For the LDS believer, the ends are living with God, living with one's family forever. Those are pretty damn important ends. In fact, it's hard to think of ends that would be of greater importance. In the LDS church, the importance of those ends can and have been used to justify all kinds of dishonesty. Heck, that principle was expressly acknowledged as "lying for the lord" by leaders in the LDS church. For the faithful parent whose child leaves the church, the stakes are enormous. Surely, a lie here and there is totally worth it if the end result is having one's family happily together in the kingdom for ever and ever. So the yugely important ends can be used to justify all kinds of awful behavior.

What's the end for this atheist? Worm dirt. My end is worm dirt. Your end is worm dirt. There is no really, really, really, really, important end that gives me a rationalization for treating you in a dishonest manner. It is a million billion times easier for you to justify dishonest as a means of defending your religion with its bigly rewards than it is for me to justify being dishonest with you.

Yeah, I think that's a cool story. Oh, wait, here's another one.

The religions prohibition against lying, at least lying to members of the in group, didn't flow downward from God to man. It flowed upward from man to God. The stance toward lying that authors incorporate into religious texts is simply a function of human brains -- it's programmed there through evolution. The source of how we feel about lying, as well the extent to which we actually do so, is exactly the same for you and me. The only difference is, you have a false consciousness about the source of your moral code. Our stance toward lying comes from the structure of our brains -- not what some guys wrote in books thousands of years ago.

Oh wait, there are more cool stories. Here's another one:

Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

-Matthew 7:1-5

Man, those cool stories are everywhere.

[_Sanctorian]

Coming home from a walk last year I found a wallet with over a hundred dollars. Now being an agnostic with atheist leanings I had no sense of God would punish me if I took the money, but instead I spend a couple of hours to find and drive the wallet to the home of the person it belonged to. Why?

How do we know if you are lying or not? In MG's world, your story is completely fabricated to push the atheist agenda. That's why!!!

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Coming home from a walk last year I found a wallet with over a hundred dollars. Now being an agnostic with atheist leanings I had no sense of God would punish me if I took the money, but instead I spend a couple of hours to find and drive the wallet to the home of the person it belonged to. Why?

How do we know if you are lying or not? In MG's world, your story is completely fabricated to push the atheist agenda. That's why!!!

Count me in as another semi-honest Atheist wallet finder. When my wife and I were hiking in the Southeast we came across a dropped wallet. Dude had everything in there to include cash. Long story short we took time away from the trail to find a PD and give them the wallet. What's my agenda? Not sure, but I like Res Ipsa's breakdown because my endgame is meaningless death reflecting absolutely zero choices on my part.

Anyway. I say semi-honest because honestly if I came across, say, a bag of money containing, say, thousands of dollars, that crap would never see the light of day.

- Doc

[_Res Ipsa]

Count me in as another semi-honest Atheist wallet finder. When my wife and I were hiking in the Southeast we came across a dropped wallet. Dude had everything in there to include cash. Long story short we took time away from the trail to find a PD and give them the wallet. What's my agenda? Not sure, but I like Res Ipsa's breakdown because my endgame is meaningless death reflecting absolutely zero choices on my part.

Anyway. I say semi-honest because honestly if I came across, say, a bag of money containing, say, thousands of dollars, that crap would never see the light of day.

- Doc

That's an interesting contrast, Cam. It makes me think about the difference between finding a wallet and finding a bag full of money. To me, finding the wallet feels more personal -- like keeping the wallet would be harming a real person whose picture you could see on the driver's license, etc. It's also a situation I can identify with -- I've lost a wallet and so I know what that experience is like. I've never lost a bag of money.

I did find one once, though. I went shopping at a local department store. When I got home, in the bag with my clothes was a bag full of money. What would you do?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I did find one once, though. I went shopping at a local department store. When I got home, in the bag with my clothes was a bag full of money. What would you do?

Actually, now that I think about it I did find a $100 bill on the floor at the Fort Irwin PX back in the day. I turned it in because I didn't think $100 was worth my integrity. They called me back after 90 days, and since no one claimed it they gave it to me. That was nice of them to be honest on their part.

As far as your scenario goes I'm keepin' that crap. Guess we know my integrity can be bought with a bag and some money in it. Lol.

- Doc

[_Sanctorian]

You atheists are all the same. Always bragging about how morally better you are than religionists.

Here's a story for ole' MG to consider. In my youth (full fledged TBM pre-mission days), I stole a basketball hoop. I felt really bad about it. I never confessed, but in the back of my mind, it always loomed over me. Fast forward to today. I'm now an agnostic and this stolen basketball hoop still weighs heavy on my head.

Now, MG would think this is a perfect opportunity to lie and say I went into the sports shop and handed them a bundle of cash with interest. You see, that would make a lot of sense in his claim that atheist/agnostics lie to push an agenda. Well, here's what's happened. Nothing. I never paid back the store for the stolen basketball hoop. It's not that I can't or don't want to, its that they are out of business.

I still feel extremely bad about it and wish there was something I could do to right the wrong, but there simply isn't anything that I can think of other than hopefully teach my children to be better citizens than I. Maybe I'll get lucky enough to track down the old owner and finally give him restitution. Until that day, I still have guilt from the error from my youth.

[_Quasimodo]

I did find one once, though. I went shopping at a local department store. When I got home, in the bag with my clothes was a bag full of money. What would you do?

A few years ago my wife and I were exploring Grand Staircase National Monument. There are many unexcavated Anasazi ruins out there. An archeologist friend told me about one and we set out to find it. It was very remote.

While having a walk around this undisturbed 800+ year old site, I spotted a large piece of turquoise half buried in the soil. I picked it up and it was a large piece that had been carved and polished into the shape of an egg. Absolutely the most amazing artifact I have ever run across. It would have been worth quite a bit.

It took every ounce of integrity I had to put it back into the depression I found it in instead of my pocket. And I'm an agnostic!

Because of the remoteness of this site, I think there is a good chance it's still there where I left it (hmm, excuse me, I think I need to go gas up the Jeep).