Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

[_Rosebud]

John,

You can't diagnose people who aren't clients and the coaching profession does not use the medical model. "Anxiety" and "depression" are mood disorders. Coaching is a good, honest profession. Get training and read the research. Avoid the Martha Beck style and check out the ICF. Coaching is probably going to replace a lot of mental health in the future, but don't confuse it with psychology.

Real transparency is more difficult than claimed transparency. Since you don't want to be completely transparent, you should stop claiming transparency. Easy enough. (Goes for finances, "board" activities and by-laws.)

How about just making it an LLC? I bet you could get the board to give you the podcast at this point. I don't know how that might jive with the IRS, though. Could be some difficulties there. Can't the 501(c)3 sell assets to an LLC? If so, you'd then be clear to run it as a family business.

I'm sick of watching you repetitively harm vulnerable people who are in crisis. It takes a lot of strength for people to move on from Mormonism without all this sh1t between themselves and the real world.

Get it over with. Move through this instead of repeating the cycle.

-RB

[_Ianfm]

I wonder if Dehlin made them sign Non-Compete Agreements. They should not sign one now if they haven't already signed one.

NCAs are very difficult to enforce within Utah. Lots of local companies still require employees sign them, but the actual post-employment laws make the enforcement impractical within the state, if not impossible.

[_Dr Exiled]

I'm sick of watching you repetitively harm vulnerable people who are in crisis. It takes a lot of strength for people to move on from Mormonism without all this ____ between themselves and the real world.

Get it over with. Move through this instead of repeating the cycle.

-RB

How is John Dehlin harming vulnerable people who are in crisis? What is the ___ you are talking about that Mr. Dehlin apparently is creating or repeating?

[_Rosebud]

I'm sick of watching you repetitively harm vulnerable people who are in crisis. It takes a lot of strength for people to move on from Mormonism without all this ____ between themselves and the real world.

Get it over with. Move through this instead of repeating the cycle.

-RB

How is John Dehlin harming vulnerable people who are in crisis? What is the ___ you are talking about that Mr. Dehlin apparently is creating or repeating?

John knows what I'm talking about and I addressed him, not you. This isn't my problem anymore, but that doesn't mean he can ever expect me to stop publicly confronting him. Too many people get hurt. He needs to move MS to an LLC and stop it with the suicide talk.

If you want more information., read my other posts on this board and other threads by many other people across the Internet. I'm not going to recap at anyone's request and I have now moved on to the extent that I will ever move on. Some stories need to be told and this man's disgusting public manipulations is one of them. What he has done has been influential enough that his exploits deserve some kind of historical record. I'm making sure a small piece of that happens, but I'm not going to put in efforts that aren't right for me. Answering random questions at request on message boards is repetitive and time consuming.

Do your own research.

[_RockSlider]

The whole reddit thread is an embarrassment and ridiculous. I don't recommend it.

You warned me, I did not listen :(

I wonder what rosebud's handle is on reddit?

[_Rosebud]

Did Money do the Mormon Transition podcast before the fight? Was mormontransitions.org her territory before it became Margi's?

One thing John does is make sure he owns the URL's and the podcast content created. He uses content creators to make content he will own. At least that's how he asked me to write up the contracts I created for him. He wanted, at the time, to own what everybody else created so he'd be able to put it on a radio station, Mormon Public Radio, he was dreaming of.

When objections are raised, he changes passwords, revokes rights to websites he owns (despite hard work the content creators have put in and not because there are clear contracts but because they're on his hosting account) and then tells the creators everything they have done is his. "Bye. Mine. Start over if you don't want to do things my way."

That's how Dan W got the Mormon Matters website. John took the site from the bloggers after the big Marlin Jensen California fight and handed it to Dan for a podcast. Dan had a strong platform to begin with because of the work the MM bloggers had done before him. Dan got 100% of MM donations back then, although there was a lot of discussion about changing that model. It took Dan a long time to work up, making just a fraction of what John made, but at least Dan had the opportunity to stand on the backs of the bloggers who came before him.

------

Kish, the biggest problem I have with the "What do they expect? JD keeps doing this over and over again" argument is that the new volunteers he brings in don't know what's going on until they've given the time and resources to him that they used to give to the church. He exploits the way Mormons think and the money goes in his pocket. I've seen the cycle repeat itself lots of times now, but the people newly in crisis (often because they've been listening to his podcasts and he encourages them to reach out to him) don't know what they're walking into. He knows he's taking advantage of this and does so deliberately. "There will always be new people," he says, again and again. He knows he can't keep loyalty because people eventually figure him out, but it doesn't matter because there's always a fresh group of meat coming through the door.

I, for example, called him feeling very upset because I couldn't handle church anymore and my husband was a TBM with high-functioning autism (although I am had no idea what was wrong at the time) who had driven me into the state many people married to autism come to after so many years (I had already survived 15 years of it by then. I'm surprised I was half alive. Not an easy situation at all.) John took disastrous advantage of that situation and made plenty of money off my work before he got rid of me because I disagreed with how things should be handled, wanted real transparency and a functioning board, and because he said he "couldn't handle having me around anymore because he cared about me so much???? (complete bs).

Then he manipulated all of you and church authorities with his false repentance. Remember "faith reconstruction?" The Q12 know what he's up to now and they did at the time of his excommunication, but they didn't in 2012. John hardly helps exMormonism. He makes us all look bad. What must the Q12 have been thinking while he portrayed himself the "victim" of his excommunication and got so many to follow him?

At one time he even tried to convince me Snuffer was a well put together man, along with trying to convince me polygamy was a good idea. Seriously. My thought was, "Who does this stiff work on, I'm not dumb and you know what I think about these subjects. I'm a science girl, not a faith girl." But obviously some of his manipulations were working on me. I now see the vulnerabilities in my past self that he saw in me at the time and took advantage of, but in the moment I didn't know what was wrong with me and was just desperate and downtrodden and, well, much more capable than he had anticipated. He never expected me to actually succeed despite what he put me through and that, I think, was part of his downfall in my case. I was both vulnerable and not. Both at the same time. My vulnerability came from my environment but I had a level of resiliency, that also came from my difficult environment, he didn't predict.

When it all played out, I lost my job and the money that and went with it while he played righteous victim and people supported him because he falsely presents himself as a nice guy with a few weaknesses. I'm still coping with financial hardship directly related to what John did to me almost 5 years ago, for what it's worth..... but that is a very long story. Domino effect. Regardless, this stuff is real and dangerous. (My poor little family.... sigh... but we're doing better all the time.)

And there was when I left, of course, a long fight over websites, brand names and passwords, all of the stuff John claimed he owned outright because he was the public figure and therefore the nonprofit couldn't function without him. I had no contracts. I came as a volunteer who trusted him and became more valuable to the organization than he was comfortable with me being. I am had been a stay at home mom before then. I knew very little outside of primary, relief society and coping with my husband. John exploited all of that legally.

--------

The biggest thing the IRS wants to avoid with 501(c)3s, or so I've had attorneys tell me, is individuals using them to siphon money to themselves they way they do with for-profit businesses. That's not what 501(c)3s are about and money that goes into them shouldn't be tax deductible. John is very out of line, but chooses board members and employees who he believes will show him loyalty.

When they have courage and stand up to him, they lose out and John works to turn others against them.

I hope Money was able to get her content away and start her own business. But there's really no other money in this arena. John has the market and he'll keep beating his competitors down with baseball bats to keep it. Is that his prerogative? I suppose.... but I'd feel better if it were an LLC and everybody knew what they were really getting into before they started. Hopefully Money is getting some clients out of this despite it all.

[_6EQUJ5]

Then he manipulated all of you and church authorities with his false repentance.

Not really. When John made those stupid comments about exmos and wife swapping / drug use, a lot of folks started to see the manipulation for what it was.

At one time he even tried to convince me Snuffer was a well put together man, along with trying to convince me polygamy was a good idea.

Can you elaborate more on this? John hates polygamy just like most exmos.

[_moksha]

You will be happy to know that Calm and friends have taken a keen interest in this story at the MD&D board and would be happy to assist with efforts to take John Dehlin down and end that Open Stories Foundation apostasy stuff.

Drawing a salary is more or less like indulging therapistcraft.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69038-open-stories-foundation-dehlin-money-and-compensation/

[_Rosebud]

Then he manipulated all of you and church authorities with his false repentance.

Not really. When John made those stupid comments about exmos and wife swapping / drug use, a lot of folks started to see the manipulation for what it was.

Fair. I add the words "attempted to" between "he" and "manipulate[d]."

At one time he even tried to convince me Snuffer was a well put together man, along with trying to convince me polygamy was a good idea.

Can you elaborate more on this? John hates polygamy just like most exmos.

Yes. He brought up the topics of polyamory and polygamy very carefully, tried to make them sound good and then implied he'd like me to become his polygamous wife. He wanted to convince his wife of the same. Pretty standard polygamy recruitment stuff. I shut him down quickly.

If you were to ask him about it today, he'd probably make the excuse that it was a "dark" time and there was a devil sitting on one of his shoulders or something like that. I don't know. It's common stuff Mormon and exMormon women have to deal with often. We're sealed eternally with the idea that our husbands will have plural wives after death. A lot of Mormon men want to make that happen during this life when they hit their midlife crises. The difference with John is that he's out playing public anti-polygamy and good husband hero.

Hopefully, for M's sake he's more stable now (although I have a hard time believing that). I don't know but I feel bad for her that he's pulled her into the public light... especially if he isn't or especially if he's had more recent trouble and pulling out the "healthy marriage" card manipulation serves him. Hopefully a public face is what she really wants for herself and isn't something he's manipulating her into. He'd be a very difficult husband. Bad choice on her part. But hey, I was deceived by him and I married high-functioning autism in the temple when I was a little girl so I can't really talk. I'm glad I'm more discriminating today.

[_Rosebud]

You will be happy to know that Calm and friends have taken a keen interest in this story at the MD&D board and would be happy to assist with efforts to take John Dehlin down and end that Open Stories Foundation apostasy stuff.

Drawing a salary is more or less like indulging therapistcraft.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69038-open-stories-foundation-dehlin-money-and-compensation/

Welp... my suggestion is that they find something better to do with their time than focus on Mormon wars. The world is a big beautiful place and John and all of them are obsessed. There's so much more to see and do than read the Book of Mormon, go to the temple, or try to take down the people trying to take down the Book of Mormon and the temple.

How can they help the vulnerable people John is targeting if they haven't even admitted to themselves that the Book of Mormon isn't true yet? They're a few steps behind.