Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Shulem »

JLHPROF wrote:I believe that God created the child that has cerebral palsy. I am not convinced that God created the child to have cerebral palsy but that that would be simply a result of the fallen world.
That would fall under John 9:13


I know you believe God made people. But really, it is simply the result of a man and a woman having sex resulting in a baby. The genes from the parents are passed on and the genetic time clocks are set and determined. God has nothing to do with it at all. He doesn't get any of the credit or the blame because he doesn't exist except in your mind.

God is your make believe friend. He's your little stuffed animal you take to bed each night after you pray to him. He's your warm little blanket and your Santa Clause who you think gives blessings. In reality, he's just your imagination.
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Shulem »

JLHPROF wrote:
And this is why I am not responding to you.
Good faith discussion works both ways.


It's not a matter of faith. It's a matter of fact and science. You see, I don't have faith in the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 which your church pushes on the world. They are false translations given by Joseph Smith to his ignorant followers in Kirtland Ohio. Mormons today still print that garbage in their scriptures and attempt to sell it to the world as gospel truth.

If that isn't screwed up, what is?
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _consiglieri »

Kishkumen wrote:Her testimony was a beautiful read in any case. It took a lot of courage for her to make this statement. I can't imagine what it would feel like to be raised in a religious organization that made a point of rejecting such a fundamental part of your personal identity. It takes guts to own that identity with personal conviction in public, no less.

I understand why this makes some people uneasy, and it's true that she is young, but I knew I was attracted to girls at the age of four. She can't know she is attracted to them at the age of twelve? Really?


Had a nice long talk with that lawyer-friend of mine who has recently left the church.

He persuaded me that all the girl said was positive and wasn't challenging or attacking in any way.

He also persuaded me that this is a classic instance of the reality that, regardless of what the church may say, there is really no space in church to say things that differ from the standard script--even in the only meeting where one is supposed to have that freedom.

After talking with my friend, I feel much more supportive of the girl and less supportive of the church leader who shut off her microphone.

I understand this is being picked up by other news agencies, including HuffPo and even in the UK.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Analytics
_Emeritus
Posts: 4231
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:24 pm

Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Analytics »

The thing is, Testimony Meeting isn't really an opportunity to get up and bear to each other in good-faith the testimonies you have received from God. Rather, the actual purpose is psychological manipulation and sociological conditioning. The point is to repeatedly hear and then be pressured to repeat the beliefs that you have to have that bind you to the church and that separate you from outsiders. That is what it is all about--establishing and reinforcing the borders of the community and socializing people to stay within those boundaries.

I'm sure lots of bishops would have handled this differently, but I bet the majority would have done basically the same thing as this one did. It's surprising that people are surprised or shocked about this.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Jersey Girl »

JLHPROF I do want to complete these exchanges with you but I may need to leave the house soon. We're getting ready for a tribal gathering on Sunday and I'm mainly coming in and out of the board right now to regroup before the next task. Whew!

In any case, I think I want to express how I view the situation from my own perspective and also my views on homosexuality if I can do this with some level of articulation. We'll soon find out!

In all situations involving children, and particularly sensitive situations such as was described here, I think of the well being of the child above all else. Then of course, I try to put myself in the place of the Ward members who are hearing this testimony in real time, the role of church leaders who are facilitating the meeting as well as what I think scripture tells me to do. Keep in mind that I'm not LDS so the scripture I would draw from would mainly be the New Testament and I would often look for scriptural support in the Old Testament.

Let me state my views on homosexuality as best as I can. The only truth that I know is that science doesn't have a good explanation for what causes our sexual orientation. I tend to go with both nature and nurture in that regard as two separate and distinct influences.

Nature: There is reason to believe that the maternal hormone shower in utero acts on the fetus to determine sexual orientation. While I can think of other biological influences, I'll leave it at that for an example of nature impact.

Nurture: I do believe there are some people in the world who due to environmental circumstances and events in early childhood, develop an attraction to the same sex.

Keep in mind that I cannot prove either of the above. Based on my own research, these best represent my conclusions. Another conundrum to throw into the mix is that of the intersexed infant. I don't know how we determine if a physical correction is needed or how we make that determination. Is it on account of hormone levels? If so, then that sort of relates to the hormone shower in utero.

I do not believe that sexual orientation can be changed any more than I believe that I can make myself become attracted to females if I only put my mind to it with a good conversion therapist. I simply cannot do that. Therefore, I see no reason to think that a person who is same sex oriented can change their sexual orientation either. I say it cannot be done.

Now, if we're talking in terms of sin, that's still another story. Please hear me out because I want you to know what I think and believe and why I think and believe it, too. I don't mind putting myself and my thinking on the table for discussion or scrutiny. If something takes place that changes my perspective or helps me to refine my thinking, I welcome it.

We are both familiar with the saying, "Love the sinner, hate the sin" or whatever form you personally have heard that stated. We both know what that means in terms of religious belief. Here is the problem that I have with that in terms of same sex relationships. I have engaged in lengthy independent study of the portions of scripture that lead us to believe that relationships that involve homosexual sex, are not what they appear to be in terms of the loving and committed same sex relationships that the girl in question hopes for in her testimony. There is literally no example of that type of relationship in the entirety of the Bible much less in the New Testament.

What we do see are examples and admonishments (Paul's catalog of vices) against Pagan fertility rites, temple prostitution and that sort of thing. There is also the Greek Gymnasium that was part of the culture that involved heterosexual men mentoring young boys, however, memory escapes just what historical time frame that existed.

None of those are what the young girl aspires to. She wants a life and a family with someone she lives and my best guess is that in spite of what her church teaches, she wants a forever family just like her peers do. She wants to love and be loved, she wants her forever babies and the truth is that she is right, she can have all of those things as a gay woman. I see a young girl whose knows and understands that she is gay, and whose heart is pure in it's intention.

If there were any naïvété' in her mind regarding the challenges she might face as a same sex partner in this world, she just learned it first hand and she learned it in her own house of worship and that, for me, is both heart breaking and unfortunate.

My Bible tells me to love my neighbor as myself, it tells me to be kind to others, it tells me to offer myself to those in need, in prison, anyone who crosses my path who needs to be lifted up, that it is my job to be one of the people who run to them while others run away from them. I believe that is central to my life as one who claims to believe Jesus and I think that's one of the things I consistently do best in terms of living out my faith. Like the little girl who believes that her creation wasn't a mistake, I believe my natural instinct to run to people in need isn't a mistake either. Other things I purely stink at and you can see it in my posts on this board. And yes, I believe that I am my brothers keeper.

The reported words of Jesus the Christ himself, tell me this specific thing:

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


When the church guy asked the girl who was speaking from her heart and her strong faith in Heavenly Father, to stop talking and shut off her mike so that the purest expressions of her young heart were abruptly silenced, the message to her is "You don't matter".

And that, beyond anything else, is what had the potential to injure her self image, her self esteem, her self confidence, her sense of self worth and her spirit. That, in my view, is millstone worthy.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _consiglieri »

You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Jersey Girl »

consiglieri wrote:
Had a nice long talk with that lawyer-friend of mine who has recently left the church.

He persuaded me that all the girl said was positive and wasn't challenging or attacking in any way.

He also persuaded me that this is a classic instance of the reality that, regardless of what the church may say, there is really no space in church to say things that differ from the standard script--even in the only meeting where one is supposed to have that freedom.

After talking with my friend, I feel much more supportive of the girl and less supportive of the church leader who shut off her microphone.

I understand this is being picked up by other news agencies, including HuffPo and even in the UK.


Look at me. :-)

You don't need to consult an attorney. Consult what you know to be true.

If a child's own church home fails to protect her heart then it has failed her completely.

This is nearly identical to how I ended up posting on these boards. The catalyst was a youth leader in my own church who let my child's LDS girlfriend go home despondent, hurt, angry and in tears, from a place she had previously always felt welcome amongst and enjoy wholesome activities and fellowship with her school friends and might I add her sister Girl Scouts (one of my troops), because she callously told the group that "Mormons don't believe in God".

The memory of that is perhaps what drove me into this thread.

And when I got the call from her mother I told her to hang up. I called and scheduled a meeting with the youth pastor for the very next day and as I asked him during that meeting I am asking you now. If you as a religious leader or teacher or member of a church, believe that you have the truth what exactly are you doing to create a hospitable environment that encourages adults and their children to come hear the truth in love, when you send their little ones home in tears injured and never to return?

How exactly does a church expect that to work? It doesn't and in my view, it isn't remotely scripturally sound or Christian for that matter.

But don't go by me, I'm just a Jersey Girl who thinks children have value.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_DarkHelmet
_Emeritus
Posts: 5422
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:38 pm

Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I thought being Gay in the Church was ok? Now it's not?

- Doc


When was it ever okay? Being gay is like the worst thing ever in Mormonism. As bad as Satan is, at least he's not gay.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_Jonah
_Emeritus
Posts: 837
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:20 am

Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Jonah »

DarkHelmet wrote:As bad as Satan is, at least he's not gay.

Not according to the South park guys. Hey, they were right about Bro. Joe and his rock in a hat.

Image
Red flags look normal when you're wearing rose colored glasses.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

I would like to remind anyone, lukers in particular, that making the argument adults are using her to make an ideological or political statement makes no sense whatsoever because that's precisely what LDS adults do to their children often in testimony meetings. Adults help their children, literally whispering in their ears what to say, and some of you might have a problem her parents helped clean up and refine her testimony?

Give me a break.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Post Reply