Is Baptism required for Salvation ?

[_kairos]

the early church as many churches later use baptism, sacraments, ordinances, etc for "control'- the RC church mediates your way to heaven through the sacraments- penance through priestly absolution brings you back into a state of sanctifying grace, thus again you are heaven worthy. look the LDS church does the exact same thing- it tells you what is or is not necessary for all those degrees of glory from earrings to number of wives- its all control BS by men and not in synch with the good news Jesus brought and taught. only belief( and it is a total surrendering/ submission to his will as lord and savior)- could he have made it any simpler?

k

[_huckelberry]

the early church as many churches later use baptism, sacraments, ordinances, etc for "control'- the RC church mediates your way to heaven through the sacraments-,,,,,, control BS by men and not in synch with the good news Jesus brought and taught. only belief( and it is a total surrendering/ submission to his will as lord and savior)- could he have made it any simpler?

k

Kairos,
I may have some sympathy with your comments but I find it impossible not to think the reverse as well.

The Catholic church believes it helps people by allowing belief and surrender to be a community undertaking mediated by grace and sacraments. I think they have a point, I cannot imagine anything less simple and less possible than asking individuals to truly believe and totally surrender. Humans by themselves cannot do these things. You propose an impossible path to salvation.

[_I have a question]

Were deckchairs necessary on the Titanic?

Well of course they were. Can you imagine enduring a sea crossing with no deck chairs? Well on the other hand in an absolute sense deck chairs could be gone without and are not necessary.

But certainly you were joking that neither way prevented the baptism.

I think that the two voices for the meaning of necessary probably creates some confusion considering Christian views of baptism.

It has become fairly broadly accepted that baptism is necessary as part of the normal proper working of peoples relationship to church and the churches role of leaven to the world. On the other hand it is not seen as necessary in the absolute sense of people go to hell if baptism is missed.

Baptism is simply symbolic of a change of mind and forgiveness. Whilst you could argue the change of mind and forgiveness are necessary for Salvation to be a functioning process, the symbology is a man made construct simply for show.

[_LittleNipper]

When a person becomes a believer by accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior --- the Holy Spirit comes and indwells that individual. That is the "Baptism" of the Holy Spirit! All saved individuals have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit ----- therefore every saved individual has been baptized!

[_Maksutov]

It's just not logical. Is it the water or the words that are said that make the difference? Because people go into the water all the time and say all kinds of stuff all the time. Where does the Jesus Magic come in? Does it have to be from the right person, sort of like sorcery, or is it all dependent on the person being baptized, in which case, other people and institutions are unnecessary and the person can baptize themselves.

Or maybe it's a superstitious rite that ensures the power of a certain religious establishment based on traditions and irrational fears. Bingo!

[_LittleNipper]

It is entirely the power of the Holy Spirit. A water baptism is an outward illustration of what the Holy Spirit has already accomplished. The water baptism is nothing but a witness to the world. A pastor who shepherds a church is the likely candidate to perform a baptism, but in fact any true believer can perform the ceremony. There is no magic involved.

[_Maksutov]

It is entirely the power of the Holy Spirit. A water baptism is an outward illustration of what the Holy Spirit has already accomplished. The water baptism is nothing but a witness to the world. A pastor who shepherds a church is the likely candidate to perform a baptism, but in fact any true believer can perform the ceremony. There is no magic involved.

So water isn't necessary. So neither is baptism by immersion. All anyone has to do is say, "I'm saved!" and you're saved. The confusion and contradictions abound. Just like you would expect from man made institutions and practices.

This is like something a child would dream up. But that's why some religion seeks out the weak and illiterate, so that they can be "like little children" and so easily manipulated and lied to.

[_LittleNipper]

It is entirely the power of the Holy Spirit. A water baptism is an outward illustration of what the Holy Spirit has already accomplished. The water baptism is nothing but a witness to the world. A pastor who shepherds a church is the likely candidate to perform a baptism, but in fact any true believer can perform the ceremony. There is no magic involved.

So water isn't necessary. So neither is baptism by immersion. All anyone has to do is say, "I'm saved!" and you're saved. The confusion and contradictions abound. Just like you would expect from man made institutions and practices.

This is like something a child would dream up. But that's why some religion seeks out the weak and illiterate, so that they can be "like little children" and so easily manipulated and lied to.

Clearly, one thief was never water baptized but was moved to understand and accept Christ by some anointing.

[_huckelberry]

So water isn't necessary. So neither is baptism by immersion. All anyone has to do is say, "I'm saved!" and you're saved. The confusion and contradictions abound. Just like you would expect from man made institutions and practices.

I as a believing Christian I fail to find the confusion and contradiction. I think somebody named Smith tried to generate confusion to convince people that they need him. It is he who drags the idea that Baptism must be done a specific way by a person with a special authorization. He then creates this large industry of temples and temple going to continue his practice.

Of course churches are put together by people and contain all sorts of practices created by people. Why would you expect other wise? Oh that's right some fellow in the Smith family claimed every body went wrong because they have man made practices instead of the special one only he has.

He creates confusion.

[_Maksutov]

Clearly, one thief was never water baptized but was moved to understand and accept Christ by some anointing.

"Clearly" it was made up to con newbies. And it worked!

Splish splash, say a few words and a cosmic event ensues. Basically magic tricks. Like turning wafers into the body of Christ, you can change a human being's whole personality and behavior with a ritual.

"Oh, but it's the "Holy Ghost" that does it." Except that no one can show that such a thing exists. It might as well be a Thetan a la Hubbard or a Tingler from the old horror movie. And it works so inconsistently, inspires people who do bad things as well as good. So it's a null factor in the equation. What it comes down to is people will be good when they want to be. Magic passes and dunkings or not. Putting a layer of voodoo on it might mystify and impress the ignorant but only to produce more confusion.