The next developments in the collusion story

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_DarkHelmet
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Re: The next developments in the collusion story

Post by _DarkHelmet »

EAllusion wrote:So Donald Trump Jr.'s position over the course of a single weekend evolved from:

1) No meeting ever happened.

2) Ok, a meeting happened, but I didn't know what it was about. We just discussed adoption mostly.

3) Ok, the meeting was set up to discuss colluding to receive anti-Clinton intel, but I didn't understand it and no collusion happened.

4) Collusion didn't happen, but actually, collusion is good. All the smart campaign people do it if they can.

It's like were watching the Godfather, only everyone is Fredo.


I can't believe Trump Jr. said what he said. And he's supposedly the smart one of all the Trump kids.
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_EAllusion
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Re: The next developments in the collusion story

Post by _EAllusion »

Molok wrote:This was also the same day that Trump asked Hillary on Twitter where the 33,000 emails she deleted were. That was the first time he had brought that up.


Wikileaks also announced they'd be publishing some of those emails only a few days later. They ultimately never did, though they obviously did publish other Clinton camp emails the Russians hacked and funnelled to them. The timing of that looks increasingly suspicious, but it's vague enough that it's appropriate to hold off judgment and hope that investigators are able to cover that with a fine tooth comb.
_EAllusion
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Re: The next developments in the collusion story

Post by _EAllusion »

The other thing going on is the Trump admin continues to fight like hell for a pro-Russia policy. Mind you, this is the same administration that dropped Trump's campaign positions on any number of important subjects from protecting MA to cleaning up the government position to lobbying firm turnstyle. Pushing pro-Russian policy stands firm. In fact, this story broke today of the Trump admin trying to pressure allies in Congress to ease sanctions just two weeks ago. This is not long after the Senate voted to legislatively codify them in a 97-2 vote.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-admi ... -sanctions

With so much suspicion about an illicit relationship with Russia, why on Earth would they do this? Why take on the political risks of it? Since it doesn't make sense as a grand strategy aim, I think it is either

1) Trump is proving that he can do what he wants regardless of what others tell him, like a recalcitrant toddler.

or

2) There's a legitimate illicit relationship.

Neither of these make you feel good.
_EAllusion
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Re: The next developments in the collusion story

Post by _EAllusion »

Then this story just broke:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/10/u ... Ar2a?amp=1

It's starting to look real bad. What's being discussed is only not treason because there isn't a declared war on Russia. It's treason-esque in that Russia is a geopolitical adversary of the US. Treason, no. Traitorous, yes. We're probably around preponderance of the evidence stage we what's already out in the public. Who knows where the investigation is going.

This is a bigger deal, if true, than Alger Hiss or Benedict Arnold. It's uncharted waters territory. The only thing that ballparks it that comes to mind is the recently revealed information that the Nixon campaign backdoor sabotaged Vietnam peace talks to aid its election chances. And that probably was treason and a pitch black dark moment in the history of our democracy. Of course, it was committed by the admin ultimately brought down by Watergate.
_MeDotOrg
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Re: The next developments in the collusion story

Post by _MeDotOrg »

From the NY Times:

WASHINGTON — Before arranging a meeting with a Kremlin-connected Russian lawyer he believed would offer him compromising information about Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump Jr. was informed in an email that the material was part of a Russian government effort to aid his father’s candidacy, according to three people with knowledge of the email.

The email to the younger Mr. Trump was sent by Rob Goldstone, a publicist and former British tabloid reporter who helped broker the June 2016 meeting. In a statement on Sunday, Mr. Trump acknowledged that he was interested in receiving damaging information about Mrs. Clinton, but gave no indication that he thought the lawyer might have been a Kremlin proxy.

Mr. Goldstone’s message, as described to The New York Times by the three people, indicates that the Russian government was the source of the potentially damaging information. It does not elaborate on the wider effort by Moscow to help the Trump campaign.

There is no evidence to suggest that the promised damaging information was related to Russian government computer hacking that led to the release of thousands of Democratic National Committee emails. The meeting took place less than a week before it was widely reported that Russian hackers had infiltrated the committee’s servers.

But the email is likely to be of keen interest to the Justice Department and congressional investigators, who are examining whether any of President Trump’s associates colluded with the Russian government to disrupt last year’s election. American intelligence agencies have determined that the Russian government tried to sway the election in favor of Mr. Trump.


Some people have theorized that this was a quid pro quo: If the Americans get rid of the Magnitsky sanctions, the Russians will give damaging information about Hillary Clinton. That would explain Trump Jr.'s earlier explanation.

I can't see how the administration escapes unscathed from this. Either Donald Trump Sr. knew about the meeting, or his son, his son-in-law, and his campaign manager all had a meeting with a Russian agent without telling him. Either way it's not good.
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_Some Schmo
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Re: The next developments in the collusion story

Post by _Some Schmo »

EAllusion wrote:With so much suspicion about an illicit relationship with Russia, why on Earth would they do this? Why take on the political risks of it? Since it doesn't make sense as a grand strategy aim, I think it is either

1) Trump is proving that he can do what he wants regardless of what others tell him, like a recalcitrant toddler.

or

2) There's a legitimate illicit relationship.

Neither of these make you feel good.

There's no doubt in my mind he has an illicit relationship with Russian oligarchs. His love for all things Russia is the only topic on which he's been consistent.

It's all about the cash.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: The next developments in the collusion story

Post by _Jersey Girl »

MeDotOrg wrote:From the NY Times:

WASHINGTON — Before arranging a meeting with a Kremlin-connected Russian lawyer he believed would offer him compromising information about Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump Jr. was informed in an email that the material was part of a Russian government effort to aid his father’s candidacy, according to three people with knowledge of the email.


I have to repeat beastie's previous question.

How is this NOT collusion?

Because if the above is true, it sure as hell looks like game over.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: The next developments in the collusion story

Post by _Jersey Girl »

MeDotOrg wrote: Either Donald Trump Sr. knew about the meeting, or his son, his son-in-law, and his campaign manager all had a meeting with a Russian agent without telling him. Either way it's not good.


I can't believe that Jr. could have done this without Sr. knowing about it.
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_MeDotOrg
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Re: The next developments in the collusion story

Post by _MeDotOrg »

MeDotOrg wrote:From the NY Times:

WASHINGTON — Before arranging a meeting with a Kremlin-connected Russian lawyer he believed would offer him compromising information about Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump Jr. was informed in an email that the material was part of a Russian government effort to aid his father’s candidacy, according to three people with knowledge of the email.


Jersey Girl wrote:I have to repeat beastie's previous question.

How is this NOT collusion?

Because if the above is true, it sure as hell looks like game over.


The thin legal argument I hear is that because they claim they actually received no information from the lawyer, therefore there was no collusion. But, if the reports are correct, at least Donald Trump Jr. went into the meeting with the idea of doing opposition research with a foreign government.

Everybody does opposition research. You just can't do it with intelligence from a foreign government, specially one that is hostile to the United States.

How is this not collusion? It's a little like saying you didn't take a bribe because you were given a check that bounced.
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_subgenius
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Re: The next developments in the collusion story

Post by _subgenius »

MeDotOrg wrote: You just can't do it with intelligence from a foreign government, specially one that is hostile to the United States.

Which US Law specifies this, or any, limitations for sources of opposition research?
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