Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's fall?

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_zerinus
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _zerinus »

Kittens_and_Jesus wrote:Once again, you believe a man caught lying about finding buried gold with rocks and a hat translated golden plates with rocks and a hat...
You can call it that all the day long if you want to, it doesn’t prove a thing. Like I said, I believe in miracles. You can call it what you like.
_Choyo Chagas
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _Choyo Chagas »

Kittens_and_Jesus wrote:
zerinus wrote:That is an assumption. It is a theory.
Theories aren't assumptions.
How can you argue science when you don't understand basic terms?

types of zerinuses don't know even their language

fyi (in zerinus' pet colour)
In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge, in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better characterized by the word 'hypothesis'). Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and from scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature behaves under certain conditions.
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968.
Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.
_Themis
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _Themis »

zerinus wrote:
DrW wrote:Zerinus,

Where in the world do you pick up this ^ nonsense? I'm embarrassed for you just reading this stuff. Here are a couple of facts that you might consider before making a fool of yourself again regarding evolution.

1. Living organisms, including humans, carry fairly detailed documentation of their evolutionary history in their genetic code. For example, the human genome tells us about the genetics of our parents, our grandparents, and even of our most recent (last) common ancestor. We can compared our genomes o those of our closest evolutionary relatives (namely the Chimpanzee and the Bonobo), and make a good estimate of how long ago our respective (simian and hominid) genetic codes diverged. That divergence was likely due to environmental (climate) change in Africa (relatively dense forest to savannah)

Same goes for the genetic codes of other animals. These genomes tell us about the animals evolutionary past. Sometimes analysis of these genomic sequences reveal real surprises, as described below.

2. Your claim that different species cannot interbreed (by definition) is simply not true. Inter-species breeding can, and on occasion does, produce offspring that are themselves capable of reproduction, and eventually evolve into new species that occupy different environmental niches from one that of one or both of their parents. The process has come to be known as hybrid speciation.

When new environmental niches become available, whether in muddy canals of Europe, or from climate change in Alaska, new organisms (species) are likely to evolve to take advantage of them. Again, in contrast to your claims, such processes (evolution of a new species) have been observed within the span of a human lifetime.

Before you again claim that speciation cannot be observed in higher animals, you should look up the term hybrid speciation using a resource other than a pseudoscientific creationist website. Examples abound - from insects, to fish, to mammals.

As mentioned above, environmental changes often spur this process. In fact, we may well have been observing hybrid speciation over the last several decades in the increasing incidence grizzly bear / polar bear interbreeding due to climate change.

Known as "grolar bears" these reproductively viable hybrids have been produced in zoos and it appears that the same is happening in the wild as the territories of the previously well separated species begin to overlap again due to global warming.
That is called hocus pocus scientific fairy-tale. It ain’t no science.


The standard response of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. No substance at all to his post.
42
_sock puppet
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _sock puppet »

zerinus wrote:
Kittens_and_Jesus wrote:Once again, you believe a man caught lying about finding buried gold with rocks and a hat translated golden plates with rocks and a hat...
You can call it that all the day long if you want to, it doesn’t prove a thing. Like I said, I believe in miracles. You can call it what you like.

Would you agree that 'miracles' are events for which there are no (at least not yet) rational explanations?

If so, where do you draw the line, if all? What inexplicable ideas might one float by you that you'd reject? Why do you believe the ones you do?
_I have a question
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _I have a question »

zerinus wrote:
DrW wrote:Zerinus,

Where in the world do you pick up this ^ nonsense? I'm embarrassed for you just reading this stuff. Here are a couple of facts that you might consider before making a fool of yourself again regarding evolution.

1. Living organisms, including humans, carry fairly detailed documentation of their evolutionary history in their genetic code. For example, the human genome tells us about the genetics of our parents, our grandparents, and even of our most recent (last) common ancestor. We can compared our genomes o those of our closest evolutionary relatives (namely the Chimpanzee and the Bonobo), and make a good estimate of how long ago our respective (simian and hominid) genetic codes diverged. That divergence was likely due to environmental (climate) change in Africa (relatively dense forest to savannah)

Same goes for the genetic codes of other animals. These genomes tell us about the animals evolutionary past. Sometimes analysis of these genomic sequences reveal real surprises, as described below.

2. Your claim that different species cannot interbreed (by definition) is simply not true. Inter-species breeding can, and on occasion does, produce offspring that are themselves capable of reproduction, and eventually evolve into new species that occupy different environmental niches from one that of one or both of their parents. The process has come to be known as hybrid speciation.

When new environmental niches become available, whether in muddy canals of Europe, or from climate change in Alaska, new organisms (species) are likely to evolve to take advantage of them. Again, in contrast to your claims, such processes (evolution of a new species) have been observed within the span of a human lifetime.

Before you again claim that speciation cannot be observed in higher animals, you should look up the term hybrid speciation using a resource other than a pseudoscientific creationist website. Examples abound - from insects, to fish, to mammals.

As mentioned above, environmental changes often spur this process. In fact, we may well have been observing hybrid speciation over the last several decades in the increasing incidence grizzly bear / polar bear interbreeding due to climate change.

Known as "grolar bears" these reproductively viable hybrids have been produced in zoos and it appears that the same is happening in the wild as the territories of the previously well separated species begin to overlap again due to global warming.
That is called hocus pocus scientific fairy-tale. It ain’t no science.


DrW, I think if you are going to start using documented facts in your posts you are putting zerinus at an unfair disadvantage...
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_zerinus
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _zerinus »

sock puppet wrote:Would you agree that 'miracles' are events for which there are no (at least not yet) rational explanations?
There is a rational explanation. The explanation is that God is all-powerful, and can to anything he wants.

If so, where do you draw the line, if all? What inexplicable ideas might one float by you that you'd reject? Why do you believe the ones you do?
If you want to make comparisons, you have to be specific, and provide examples to compare. Talking airy fairy stuff in the air doesn't help much.
_moksha
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _moksha »

zerinus wrote:
moksha wrote:The fully restored version of Cafeteria Mormonism for Latter-Day Believers.
And that means what?

I believe that the Lord God created the universe
I believe that he sent his only son to die for my sins
And I believe that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America.

I believe that God lives on a planet called Kolob!
I believe that Jesus has his own planet as well
And I believe that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri.

I believe that God has a plan for all of us
I believe that plan involves me getting my own planet
And I believe that the current President of the Church, Thomas S. Monson, speaks directly to God
I am a Mormon!
And, dang it, a Mormon just believes allegorically!
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_DrW
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _DrW »

zerinus wrote:That is called hocus pocus scientific fairy-tale. It ain’t no science.

zerinus,

You should know me well enough by now to understand that I do not make statements regarding science or scientific findings that can not be backed up by peer reviewed mainstream scientific literature. Now and then I even include literature references for those who may be curious.

You, my friend, suffer from a severe lack of curiosity and its associated open mindedness. In an apparently futile attempt to help spur your curiosity, it was left it to you in the post upthread to go to the literature and have a look for yourself.

Not only were you invited to look this stuff up, you were even given a couple of key search terms, including "hybrid speciation" and "grolar bear".
___________

And your "hocus pocus scientific fairy tale" is not only a poorly constructed attempt at a description, it is a double oxymoron. Congratulations.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_DrW
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _DrW »

moksha wrote:I believe that the Lord God created the universe
I believe that he sent his only son to die for my sins
And I believe that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America.

I believe that God lives on a planet called Kolob!
I believe that Jesus has his own planet as well
And I believe that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri.

I believe that God has a plan for all of us
I believe that plan involves me getting my own planet
And I believe that the current President of the Church, Thomas S. Monson, speaks directly to God
I am a Mormon!
And, dang it, a Mormon just believes allegorically!

Great stuff, moksha.

A magnificent Mormon manifesto if there ever was one.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
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Re: Zerinus - Do you believe there was death before Adam's f

Post by _DrW »

Choyo Chagas wrote:fyi (in zerinus' pet colour)
In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge, in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better characterized by the word 'hypothesis'). Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and from scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature behaves under certain conditions.

Appropriate description, Choyo. But I fear that you and I and the rest of the rational individuals on this particular thread are simply wasting our time. Zerinus is an accomplished troll who seems hell bent on representing Mormonism and fundamentalist Christianity, in general, in the worst possible light. And who knows - zerinus may even be proud of this accomplishment.

This seems to be the purpose in life and the destiny that zerinus has chosen for himself. If Heraclitus is to be believed, zerinus' achievement in becoming an accomplished fundamentalist Mormon internet troll is a reflection of his character.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
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