Bible verse by verse

[_Maksutov]

Yeah, the flood that didn't happen just like the Nephites that never existed. Nice stories, though. Make for great cartoons. Just the sort of thing to believe if you never want to grow up and be part of a greater universe and a real history.

Your Bible has almost run its course and your Messiah still isn't here. Keep those excuses coming.

[_huckelberry]

I find myself surprised that people have so little respect for the use of imaginative imagery to communicate with that they assume its source must be madness or psychedelics. Imaginatively impaired?

Revelations is working with a set of traditional imagery and style that has no relation to drugs or psychosis. That is simple and clear whether you see inspiration from God as involved or not.

Having said as much as this I might as well add I have zero use for theories detecting coded messages about when the second comming is going to happen in this book. Such drivel is not what it is about.

[_Maksutov]

Revelations is working with a set of traditional imagery and style that has no relation to drugs or psychosis. That is simple and clear whether you see inspiration from God as involved or not.

You need to do a little research into the long long history of entheogens. Goes back way before the Bible. Sorry, Huck, but the imagery and symbolism is so dense and its interpretations so various that the chaos of psychedelic experience seems spot on to me. How do you know God doesn't work through LSD and psilocybin? Someone has actually studied this...see below.

...........

On Good Friday, 1962, before services began in Boston University's Marsh Chapel, Walter Pahnke administered small capsules to twenty Protestant divinity students. 10 capsules contained a large dose of niacin, part of the Vitamin B complex. 10 contained 30 milligrams of psilocybin, a hallucinogen extracted from mushrooms that produces vivid sensory images and distorted perception (Pahnke, 1963). Pahnke, who was both a physician and a minister, conducted the experiment for his Ph.D. in Religion and Society at Harvard University, with Timothy Leary as his principal academic advisor. Both experimenters hypothesized that the psychedelic drug could facilitate a "mystical" experience in religiously inclined volunteers who took the drug in a religious setting. Pahnke believed the most conducive environment for his experiment would be a community of believers participating in a familiar religious ceremony designed to elicit religious feelings, and therefore chose his subjects from the Harvard Divinity school, all previously acquainted, and coded them in a randomized controlled, matched group, double-blind experiment using an active placebo, niacin. They then allowed participants to experience a familiar Good Friday sermon, with careful monitoring and trained research ‘guides’ to mediate the experience, and required a survey afterwards describing their experience.
According to Pahnke, the experiment determined that "the persons who received psilocybin experienced to a greater extent than did the controls the phenomena described by our typology of mysticism" (Pahnke, 1963). Follow up studies with the participants in the short term demonstrated that all those receiving the drug continued to feel that they had had a mystical experience, and that the experience helped to shape their lives and career paths, as well as their interpretation of both faith and the world in general. Pahnke died in 1971, with much of the data from the study lost or still in coded form, which prevented long-term follow up. However, careful research undertaken by Rick Doblin, with the contribution of many of the original participants, allowed for a 25-year follow up survey to be administered. “Everyone I talked to who had the psilocybin felt after 25 years of reflection that the experience was a genuine mystical experience," Doblin says. "It was a clear viewing of some ultimate level of reality that had a long-term positive impact on their lives" (Winslow, 2006). Therefore, this study reveals that Pahnke’s original hypothesis had merit; not only could psilocybin act as an ethneogen, but the mystical experiences due to the psilocybin resulted in persisting positive changes in attitudes and behavior.

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/e ... d-research

............

In any event, the Book of Revelation has been used to produce some of the silliest and most contradictory nonsense ever associated with the Bible. Try to reconcile all the sectarian interpretations over the years. You can't. The best interpretation is the historical approach wherein it's understood as a concocted fantasy to attack enemies and defend friends, just like so many other "sacred" texts that have come to be revered. No broader or more esoteric understanding is required. This is an instance where Umberto Eco's quip from Foucault's Pendulum comes to mind:

"Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message."

[Guest]

Satan tries his best to mimic GOD. That is what Satan does. He wants to manipulate humans. He uses everything at his disposal --- that is what Satan is all about. Even the Greek sibyls were exposed to various forms of abuse ---- just like the movie moguls in Hollywood. And I believe Satan does even attempt to use the Bible to both confuse and construct false doctrine; as well as, fabricate fake scripture in his attempt to exert his own influence over the lost.

GOD uses the the Holy Spirit. He doesn't need alcohol, sex, or various drugs to illustrate and present His Divine will. And it is the only God's Divine desire that achieves ultimate eternal success.

[_Maksutov]

Satan tries his best to mimic GOD. That is what Satan does. He wants to manipulate humans. He uses everything at his disposal --- that is what Satan is all about. Even the Greek sibyls were exposed to various forms of abuse ---- just like the movie moguls in Hollywood. And I believe Satan does even attempt to use the Bible to both confuse and construct false doctrine; as well as, fabricate fake scripture in his attempt to exert his own influence over the lost.

GOD uses the the Holy Spirit. He doesn't need alcohol, sex, or various drugs to achieve His Divine will. And it is the only God's Divine desire that achieves ultimate eternal success.

I love the Satan talk. Very scary! Oooooh, I'm feeling possessed! You must enjoy Halloween all year around with Holy Ghosts and Devils! How old are you, Nipper? Tell us some more tall tales about Bible superheroes. They were really big before comic books but served the same purpose, apparently.

I guess it's the will of God that Christians be totally confused and at war with each other. That must be his Divine Desire, eh? Seems like a very confused person, your God. Probably because he was made in the image of his followers. Remind me again if there's going to be a rapture or not. Let's see how well God/GOD has communicated.

[_LittleNipper]

Satan tries his best to mimic GOD. That is what Satan does. He wants to manipulate humans. He uses everything at his disposal --- that is what Satan is all about. Even the Greek sibyls were exposed to various forms of abuse ---- just like the movie moguls in Hollywood. And I believe Satan does even attempt to use the Bible to both confuse and construct false doctrine; as well as, fabricate fake scripture in his attempt to exert his own influence over the lost.

GOD uses the the Holy Spirit. He doesn't need alcohol, sex, or various drugs to achieve His Divine will. And it is the only God's Divine desire that achieves ultimate eternal success.

I love the Satan talk. Very scary! Oooooh, I'm feeling possessed! You must enjoy Halloween all year around with Holy Ghosts and Devils! How old are you, Nipper? Tell us some more tall tales about Bible superheroes. They were really big before comic books but served the same purpose, apparently.

I guess it's the will of God that Christians be totally confused and at war with each other. That must be his Divine Desire, eh? Seems like a very confused person, your God. Probably because he was made in the image of his followers. Remind me again if there's going to be a rapture or not. Let's see how well God/GOD has communicated.

There is going to be a "catching away." In Latin the verb rapiemur which means “to seize, snatch, carry away.” This is the same meaning behind the Greek word that is found in the Bible, harpazo.

[_Maksutov]

I love the Satan talk. Very scary! Oooooh, I'm feeling possessed! You must enjoy Halloween all year around with Holy Ghosts and Devils! How old are you, Nipper? Tell us some more tall tales about Bible superheroes. They were really big before comic books but served the same purpose, apparently.

I guess it's the will of God that Christians be totally confused and at war with each other. That must be his Divine Desire, eh? Seems like a very confused person, your God. Probably because he was made in the image of his followers. Remind me again if there's going to be a rapture or not. Let's see how well God/GOD has communicated.

There is going to be a "catching away." In Latin the verb rapiemur which means “to seize, snatch, carry away.” This is the same meaning behind the Greek word that is found in the Bible, harpazo.

That must be the televangelists snatching away the money of the simpletons who believe their nonsense. The Rapture of the Dollars, or How Kenneth Copeland Became Filthy Rich on Jesus.

[_LittleNipper]

Revelation 9:1-21

The 5th angel blew his shofar; and I observed a star that had fallen out of heaven onto the earth, and the angel was given the key to the shaft leading down to the Abyss.

He opened the shaft of the Abyss, and there escaped smoke from the shaft like the smoke of a huge furnace; the sun was being obscured, and the sky also, by the smoke from the shaft.

Then out of the smoke upon the earth arrived locusts, and they were given power like the power scorpions have on earth.

They were instructed not to harm the grass on the earth, any green plant or any tree, but only people who did not possess the seal of God on their foreheads.

The locusts were not allowed to kill them, only to inflict pain on them 5 months; and the pain they caused was like the pain of a scorpion sting.

At this time people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

Now these locusts resembled horses outfitted for battle. On their heads were what looked like crowns of gold, and their faces were like human faces.

They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like those of lions.

Their chests were like iron breastplates, and the sound their wings made was like the roar of many horses and chariots rushing into battle.

They had tails like those of scorpions, with stings; and in their tails was their power to hurt people for five months.

They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose Hebrew name is “Abaddon” and in our language, “Destroyer.”

The first misery has passed, but there are still two to come.

The sixth angel sounded his shofar, and I heard a voice from the 4 horns of the gold altar before God,

saying to the sixth angel with the shofar, “Release the 4 angels that are bound at the great river Euphrates!”

And they were released. These 4 angels had been held ready for this exact moment --- this day and month and year, to kill a third of mankind;

and the number of cavalry soldiers was 200,000,000! I heard the number.

Here is how the horses looked in the vision: the riders had breastplates that were fire-red, iris-blue and sulfur-yellow; the horses’ heads were like lions’ heads; and from their mouths issued fire, smoke and sulfur.

It was these 3 plagues that killed a third of mankind — the fire, smoke and sulfur issuing from the horses’ mouths.

For the might of the horses was in their mouths and also in their tails --- since their tails were like snakes with heads, and with them they could cause injury.

The remainder of humanity, those who were not killed by these plagues, even then would not turn from what they designed with their own hands — they did not stop worshipping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk.

Nor did they turn from their murdering, their involvement with the occult and with drugs, sexual immorality or their stealing.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And the fifth messenger did sound, and I saw a star out of the heaven having fallen to the earth, and there was given to it the key of the pit of the abyss,

2 and he did open the pit of the abyss, and there came up a smoke out of the pit as smoke of a great furnace, and darkened was the sun and the air, from the smoke of the pit.

3 And out of the smoke came forth locusts to the earth, and there was given to them authority, as scorpions of the earth have authority,

4 and it was said to them that they may not injure the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but -- the men only who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads,

5 and it was given to them that they may not kill them, but that they may be tormented five months, and their torment [is] as the torment of a scorpion, when it may strike a man;

6 and in those days shall men seek the death, and they shall not find it, and they shall desire to die, and the death shall flee from them.

7 And the likenesses of the locusts [are] like to horses made ready to battle, and upon their heads as crowns like gold, and their faces as faces of men,

8 and they had hair as hair of women, and their teeth were as [those] of lions,

9 and they had breastplates as breastplates of iron, and the noise of their wings [is] as the noise of chariots of many horses running to battle;

10 and they have tails like to scorpions, and stings were in their tails; and their authority [is] to injure men five months;

11 and they have over them a king -- the messenger of the abyss -- a name [is] to him in Hebrew, Abaddon, and in the Greek he hath a name, Apollyon.

12 The first wo did go forth, lo, there come yet two woes after these things.

13 And the sixth messenger did sound, and I heard a voice out of the four horns of the altar of gold that is before God,

14 saying to the sixth messenger who had the trumpet, `Loose the four messengers who are bound at the great river Euphrates;'

15 and loosed were the four messengers, who have been made ready for the hour, and day, and month, and year, that they may kill the third of men;

16 and the number of the forces of the horsemen [is] two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them.

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and those sitting upon them, having breastplates of fire, and jacinth, and brimstone; and the heads of the horses [are] as heads of lions, and out of their mouths proceedeth fire, and smoke, and brimstone;

18 by these three were the third of men killed, from the fire, and from the smoke, and from the brimstone, that is proceeding out of their mouth,

19 for their authorities are in their mouth, and in their tails, for their tails [are] like serpents, having heads, and with them they do injure;

20 and the rest of men, who were not killed in these plagues, neither did reform from the works of their hands, that they may not bow before the demons, and idols, those of gold, and those of silver, and those of brass, and those of stone, and those of wood, that are neither able to see, nor to hear, nor to walk,

21 yea they did not reform from their murders, nor from their sorceries, nor from their whoredoms, nor from their thefts.

[_Choyo Chagas]

...

This is an instance where Umberto Eco's quip from Foucault's Pendulum comes to mind:

"Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message."

see the signature of an old (2007.10.18 12:07) member: memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=989...

and viewtopic.php?p=998598#p998598 as well...

[_Maksutov]

...

This is an instance where Umberto Eco's quip from Foucault's Pendulum comes to mind:

"Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message."

see the signature of an old (2007.10.18 12:07) member: http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... le&u=989...

and http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... 98#p998598 as well...

Yes, I remember him fondly.