Bible verse by verse

[_huckelberry]

Revelations is working with a set of traditional imagery and style that has no relation to drugs or psychosis. That is simple and clear whether you see inspiration from God as involved or not.

You need to do a little research into the long long history of entheogens. Goes back way before the Bible. Sorry, Huck, but the imagery and symbolism is so dense and its interpretations so various that the chaos of psychedelic experience seems spot on to me. How do you know God doesn't work through LSD and psilocybin? Someone has actually studied this...see below.

Muksutov, about research, I started college in 1967 as a nonbeliever in God but interested in the varieties of religious experience. I developed a strong preference for meditative experience rather than chemical but explored the chemical possibilities as well.I have had enough interest in world religious experience to have read some about its role in shamanistic activity.In that realm sweat lodge without drugs is more interesting to me.

However for the book of revelations we are both stuck with our own assessment of the writing style. I see contemplated reworking of dream and literary imagery with a strong intended meaning. It is easy to get lost in the forest because of the trees in the book. Expecting some one to one correspondence from image to real event is to my mind a futile undertaking. Such correspondence does not exist and to my mind is not intended. It should be open to multiple readings so I am unconcerned and uninterested in disagreement over those.

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Your quote about the experiment of LSD in a religious context is interesting. It points out how much what happens with the substance is a result of what is in the individuals mind,what they are lead to expect, directed to during the experience, context and environment. This fits my expectation that such experiences may bring out religious imagery but are likely not the source.

It reminds me of a vivid song line ( Joni Mitchell)
I saw all the bombers
flying shotgun in the sky
were turning into butterflies.

I think this is put together to suggest the sort of thing in LSD experience. It makes that suggestion to my mind. I also think it was more likely created with regular imagination wishing to express an idea with the words fashioned to suggest LSD experience for immediacy.

[_LittleNipper]

There is going to be a "catching away." In Latin the verb rapiemur which means “to seize, snatch, carry away.” This is the same meaning behind the Greek word that is found in the Bible, harpazo.

That must be the televangelists snatching away the money of the simpletons who believe their nonsense. The Rapture of the Dollars, or How Kenneth Copeland Became Filthy Rich on Jesus.

I attend a physical Bible church close to where I reside. Anyone healthy enough to go to an area church should for their own sake. I do not donate money to TELEvangelists; however, that might be the only sort of church some individuals are familiar with. To those which much is given, much will be expected...

[_Maksutov]

That must be the televangelists snatching away the money of the simpletons who believe their nonsense. The Rapture of the Dollars, or How Kenneth Copeland Became Filthy Rich on Jesus.

I attend a physical Bible church close to where I reside. Anyone healthy enough to go to an area church should for their own sake. I do not donate money to TELEvangelists; however, that might be the only sort of church some individuals are familiar with. To those which much is given, much will be expected...

So rich preachers aren't a problem for you?

[Guest]

Revelation 10:1-11

And I observed another mighty angel descending out of the heaven shrouded in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head. His is face was like the sun, his legs like columns of fire.

And he held a little scroll lying open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot upon the land,

and shouted in a voice as loud as a lion's roar. And upon his shout, 7 thunderclaps resounded with voices that spoke.

When these 7 thunderclaps spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say,

“Package up the things the 7 thunderclaps revealed, do not record them!”

Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and land lifted his right heavenward

and swore by the One who lives forever and eternally, who created heaven and everything it, earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no additional delay;

Quite the contrary, in the days following the sound the 7th angel when he blasts his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to a finalization, the Good News as He proclaimed it to His servants the prophets.”

Next the voice which I had heard from heaven spoke to me again and said, “Go, take the scroll lying open in the hand of the angel standing on the sea and on the land!”

So I went over to the angel and asked him to hand me the little scroll; and he said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but in your mouth it will be honey sweet.”

I took the little scroll from the angel’s hand and consumed it; and in my mouth it was sweet as honey; but after I had swallowed it, my stomach turned sour.

Then I was told, “You must prophesy once again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And I saw another strong messenger coming down out of the heaven, arrayed with a cloud, and a rainbow upon the head, and his face as the
sun, and his feet as pillars of fire,

2 and he had in his hand a little scroll opened, and he did place his right foot upon the sea, and the left upon the land,

3 and he cried with a great voice, as a lion doth roar, and when he cried, speak out did the seven thunders their voices;

4 and when the seven thunders spake their voices, I was about to write, and I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Seal the things that the seven thunders spake,' and, `Thou mayest not write these things.'

5 And the messenger whom I saw standing upon the sea, and upon the land, did lift up his hand to the heaven,

6 and did swear in Him who doth live to the ages of the ages, who did create the heaven and the things in it, and the land and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it -- that time shall not be yet,

7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when he may be about to sound, and the secret of God may be finished, as He did declare to His own servants, to the prophets.

8 And the voice that I heard out of the heaven is again speaking with me, and saying, `Go, take the little scroll that is open in the hand of the messenger who hath been standing upon the sea, and upon the land:'

9 and I went away unto the messenger, saying to him, `Give me the little scroll;' and he saith to me, `Take, and eat it up, and it shall make thy belly bitter, but in thy mouth it shall be sweet -- as honey.'

10 And I took the little scroll out of the hand of the messenger, and did eat it up, and it was in my mouth as honey -- sweet, and when I did eat it -- my belly was made bitter;

11 and he saith to me, `It behoveth thee again to prophesy about peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings -- many.'

[_LittleNipper]

I attend a physical Bible church close to where I reside. Anyone healthy enough to go to an area church should for their own sake. I do not donate money to TELEvangelists; however, that might be the only sort of church some individuals are familiar with. To those which much is given, much will be expected...

So rich preachers aren't a problem for you?

Are the likes of Margaret Sanger and Madalyn Murray O'Hair a problem for you?

[_Maksutov]

So, Nipper, are you going to post a translation of what all these symbols and such mean or do we get to just make up anything we want?

[_Maksutov]

You need to do a little research into the long long history of entheogens. Goes back way before the Bible. Sorry, Huck, but the imagery and symbolism is so dense and its interpretations so various that the chaos of psychedelic experience seems spot on to me. How do you know God doesn't work through LSD and psilocybin? Someone has actually studied this...see below.

Muksutov, about research, I started college in 1967 as a nonbeliever in God but interested in the varieties of religious experience. I developed a strong preference for meditative experience rather than chemical but explored the chemical possibilities as well.I have had enough interest in world religious experience to have read some about its role in shamanistic activity.In that realm sweat lodge without drugs is more interesting to me.

However for the book of revelations we are both stuck with our own assessment of the writing style. I see contemplated reworking of dream and literary imagery with a strong intended meaning. It is easy to get lost in the forest because of the trees in the book. Expecting some one to one correspondence from image to real event is to my mind a futile undertaking. Such correspondence does not exist and to my mind is not intended. It should be open to multiple readings so I am unconcerned and uninterested in disagreement over those.

//////////
Your quote about the experiment of LSD in a religious context is interesting. It points out how much what happens with the substance is a result of what is in the individuals mind,what they are lead to expect, directed to during the experience, context and environment. This fits my expectation that such experiences may bring out religious imagery but are likely not the source.

It reminds me of a vivid song line ( Joni Mitchell)
I saw all the bombers
flying shotgun in the sky
were turning into butterflies.

I think this is put together to suggest the sort of thing in LSD experience. It makes that suggestion to my mind. I also think it was more likely created with regular imagination wishing to express an idea with the words fashioned to suggest LSD experience for immediacy.

Great memories and Joni Mitchell was an early muse of mine. I never had any spiritual experiences on acid. Only existential dread, obsessive thinking, mood swings, some simple hallucinations. During my teens I *did* have two mystical/spiritual/peak experiences. They both took place outdoors and lasted less than a minute but were incredibly intense and memorable.

[_huckelberry]

Great memories and Joni Mitchell was an early muse of mine. I never had any spiritual experiences on acid. Only existential dread, obsessive thinking, mood swings, some simple hallucinations. During my teens I *did* have two mystical/spiritual/peak experiences. They both took place outdoors and lasted less than a minute but were incredibly intense and memorable.

Maksutov, my sympathy. I am glad my experience with LSD is relatively limited. The first few times I experienced something I believed was spiritually or mentally expanded experience. I was willing to nurture some hope that it was a step of enlightenment. In retrospect to my understanding even the best possibilities with it are unstable and temporary. I then had an experience with LSD that was more chaotic which though not really bad during the chaos started a seriously bad experience. The next day I started having unfocused fear as if the world was falling apart around me. I struggled with white knuckles to get through the day for weeks. I felt a little poorly put together for months afterword. It left me no doubt I had no wish to ever try such again.

The chemical to my understanding alters ones internal thought processing so the filters go down. That may allow different thoughts realization or just stuff. ("is this love, or just confusion?")

I have had experiences ,contemplation, hiking or just being in the outdoors which for me have been better and more lasting in their positive effects.

[_LittleNipper]

So, Nipper, are you going to post a translation of what all these symbols and such mean or do we get to just make up anything we want?

The Holy spirit will reveal the full understand to the proper participants at just the right moment.

[_Maksutov]

So, Nipper, are you going to post a translation of what all these symbols and such mean or do we get to just make up anything we want?

The Holy spirit will reveal the full understand to the proper participants at just the right moment.

Except all those times when it doesn't. See: Atrocities, Religious