What does a troll really want?

[_EAllusion]

I get the sense you are trying to tell us something.

May I just ask a couple of questions. You've given some objective assessments of mg's behavior such as this:

I'm persuaded that MG is deliberately entering threads on a consistent basis in order to be disruptive to them. He's not trying to participate in conversation in these instances. He's trying to blow it up by pushing people's buttons. He seems to have historical and current "triggers" that he thinks justifies doing this.

Q. Is there anything about that assessment that indicates you are talking about the behavior of a "nice [person] to have on your message board"??

Q. Would your description change if he engaged in exactly the same behaviors you are observing above, but you were unaware of his religious affiliation? Or knew he was exmormon?

If the argument is that bad behavior needs to be tolerated in order to get a Mormon or apologist to post here, then that means the rules will not be enforced fairly. It's also a fairly insulting position to take about Mormon posters.

Why not just enforce what I thought we already had:
rules and standards that apply to all, and a mod team that enforces them fairly.

I don't see how that can be accomplished unless mods are objectively viewing what is posted, without reference to the poster's affiliation.

I think you are interpreting what I'm saying in the exact opposite way it was intended. I do not think people threatening to leave a board is any basis for deciding to censor someone. That remains true even if you really want those people to post here. I had grinadel and Kish in mind when I said that. I am using an example of a discussion board on Mormonism that resulted in unfair, harsh censorship because a bunch of high-value Mormon posters collectively decided that legitimate criticism of them was improper. I'm sure they didn't find such criticism legitimate, which makes their behavior even more troubling. It is a lesson for how not to behave.

In the case of MG, I think his behavior is or isn't a violation of the rules. If it is, then I think queuing is warranted if it is habitual and warnings have not deterred it. My conclusion as to what to do is in the thread for everyone to see.

Fret not. What I recommend is usually what happens. The ldsfaqs response that was well regarded was my idea. :p. I'm just waiting to hear back from Shades.

[_EAllusion]

I should add that I think people who respond to posters like MG by engaging in vigilante rule-breaking in order to bring a dose of reverse justice should probably also be queued if they don't knock it off after being warned.

[_Jersey Girl]

The part of that story that people might remember even less is that ZLMB reacted to these threats to take their ball and go home by stepping up censoring of critics to appease them.

I was there around the time when that took place. I remember it. My impression is that Z was dominated by active LDS. I found it strange that they were coming down on what I saw as the minority.

[_honorentheos]

I'm inherently a bit of a dick by nature. So I hesitate to say something because it's not exactly coming from an enlightened place either. But it is surprising how limited people are willing to show some self-knowledge when it comes to engaging with MG and justifying really dickish behavior on their own parts. Lemmie, MG brought out the worst in you and grindael. And MG seemed to enjoy that he could. I think it's messy and appreciate that EA is approaching it as messy.

I'll just come out and say it. MG alone didn't bother me. Lemmie, your and grindael's responses helped create the conditions that made the entire package a waste of time so I stopped participating when MG would post. In my mind, it was a collective behavior that each of you individually did not normally exhibit and in other contexts are some of my favorite posters. I'll miss grindael. I won't miss him engaging with MG. I can't isolate MG out here, though. His choice to pursue the behavior into threads started by grindael probably warrants moderator action, but so would others pursuing MG into other threads where he was posting about a topic.

[_Jersey Girl]

I'm inherently a bit of a dick by nature.

When a poster recently wanted to point out that trait in me, they described it as being true to myself. Speak your truth, honor. I appreciate it when you do.

[_Lemmie]

I'm inherently a bit of a dick by nature. So I hesitate to say something because it's not exactly coming from an enlightened place either. But it is surprising how limited people are willing to show some self-knowledge when it comes to engaging with MG and justifying really dickish behavior on their own parts. Lemmie, MG brought out the worst in you and grindael. And MG seemed to enjoy that he could. I think it's messy and appreciate that EA is approaching it as messy.

I'll just come out and say it. MG alone didn't bother me. Lemmie, your and grindael's responses helped create the conditions that made the entire package a waste of time so I stopped participating when MG would post. In my mind, it was a collective behavior that each of you individually did not normally exhibit and in other contexts are some of my favorite posters. I'll miss grindael. I won't miss him engaging with MG. I can't isolate MG out here, though. His choice to pursue the behavior into threads started by grindael probably warrants moderator action, but so would others pursuing MG into other threads where he was posting about a topic.

No hesitation necessary, I've been coming to a similar conclusion myself, with the possible exception that the passive-aggressive nature of mg's communications truly did bother me.

Thank you for making those comments, I consider you a friend, and having a friend who is willing to tell you the difficult things is, in my opinion, a real friend.

[_Lemmie]

I think you are interpreting what I'm saying in the exact opposite way it was intended. I do not think people threatening to leave a board is any basis for deciding to censor someone. That remains true even if you really want those people to post here. I had grinadel and Kish in mind when I said that. I am using an example of a discussion board on Mormonism that resulted in unfair, harsh censorship because a bunch of high-value Mormon posters collectively decided that legitimate criticism of them was improper. I'm sure they didn't find such criticism legitimate, which makes their behavior even more troubling. It is a lesson for how not to behave.

ok, I see. Yes, I was interpreting your example as having to do with the posting, not the response, thanks for your explanation.

In the case of MG, I think his behavior is or isn't a violation of the rules. If it is, then I think queuing is warranted if it is habitual and warnings have not deterred it. My conclusion as to what to do is in the thread for everyone to see.

Fret not. What I recommend is usually what happens. The ldsfaqs response that was well regarded was my idea. :p. I'm just waiting to hear back from Shades.

Agreed, no fretting! and thank you.

one comment about your descriptions of trolling and derailing--I've been going over some of the research again and your distinction between single instances and a repeating pattern gets to the heart of where research seems to be headed. To simplify considerably, lately there seems to be far less discussion of whether the contents of a post or group of posts constitute trolling-which occupied much early research- and far more consideration of what constitutes overall patterns of trolling behavior, not necessarily dependent on content.

one interesting point in some current research:

Trolling is usually considered a form of cyberbullying, but there are subtle differences. Cyberbullying targets victims, while trolls use a baiting tactic to find victims who will provide them with the most entertainment. People who take the bait are then considered fair game by the trolls.

this to me explains a lot about who gets targeted.

[_honorentheos]

I'm inherently a bit of a dick by nature. So I hesitate to say something because it's not exactly coming from an enlightened place either. But it is surprising how limited people are willing to show some self-knowledge when it comes to engaging with MG and justifying really dickish behavior on their own parts. Lemmie, MG brought out the worst in you and grindael. And MG seemed to enjoy that he could. I think it's messy and appreciate that EAllusion is approaching it as messy.

I'll just come out and say it. MG alone didn't bother me. Lemmie, your and grindael's responses helped create the conditions that made the entire package a waste of time so I stopped participating when MG would post. In my mind, it was a collective behavior that each of you individually did not normally exhibit and in other contexts are some of my favorite posters. I'll miss grindael. I won't miss him engaging with MG. I can't isolate MG out here, though. His choice to pursue the behavior into threads started by grindael probably warrants moderator action, but so would others pursuing MG into other threads where he was posting about a topic.

No hesitation necessary, I've been coming to a similar conclusion myself, with the possible exception that the passive-aggressive nature of mg's communications truly did bother me.

Thank you for making those comments, I consider you a friend, and having a friend who is willing to tell you the difficult things is, in my opinion, a real friend.

Thanks, Lemmie. I'm glad you took it as I was hoping to present it as I don't trust my abilities to convey it well through the message board format. My hesitation was from my concern I would unintentionally make it sound critical of you or any other poster personally which is not what I feel at all. Quite the opposite, and I genuinely value your thoughts as some of my "must reads" when I see you've posted in a thread.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

[_Some Schmo]

Sorry to disappoint you, my friend. I'll see what I can do to come up with a companion thread that is pure theory. In the abstract, I am as disappointed by anecdotal evidence as you are.

It's cool. Given that I don't visit anything on this site outside Spirit Paradise, I wasn't aware of the situation, so it turned out to be something on which I have no opinion... and I have not the will to find out about it.

I think What does a troll really want? is a great topic though. I would love to hear your thoughts on that.