A few questions for Shulem

[_Jesse Pinkman]

The Book of Abraham was canonized. I never had any argument with the fact that Joseph Smith's handprints are on the Book of Abraham.

Indeed, it can't be argued that the book is canonized, that's a fact. It can, however, be argued that there are more than just Smith's handprints on the Book of Abraham. As far as the world is concerned, the book is a product from the mind and thoughts of Smith -- writing words on paper with an ink pen. The saints take it further and believe God revealed the contents of Abraham's original work to Smith's mind through the Spirit of direct/divine revelation.

The Book of Abraham contains/teaches essential doctrines of the church that I believe make sense in my mind and heart.

I can appreciate that. People have a right to feel good about what they believe.

I see the Book of Abraham as a book of scripture in the same sense that I would see Isaiah in the Old Testament as being a book of scripture.

I don't care about Isaiah or biblical records. Those works are of a different class altogether than the collective works of Mormonism. But I get it that you consider the Book of Abraham to be on par with Isaiah.

Do they both have their controversies attached to them? Sure. Did the writer(s) of Isaiah have their own humanness mixed in with the Isaiah text? Sure.

Isaiah and Joseph Smith were human. They put their thoughts to paper and called it scripture. Not everyone believes it and for good reason.

I believe that Joseph may have also had his own handprints in the Book of Abraham also.

Why do you say, "may"? There really is no "may" about it. The entire Book of Abraham presentation in the Times and Seasons came from the mind of Joseph Smith. Whether he wrote it down or dictated, it came from the mind of Joseph Smith. Forget the handprints. We are talking about thoughts from the human mind transformed into words. Now, if you want to claim that a higher power such as the Holy Spirit was helping him with his thoughts that takes it to a different level. But, the Book of Abraham came from the translator Joseph Smith. That's a proven fact. What's not proven is that some other higher power helped him think up and express the content.

The way that it was serialized in Nauvoo and the time constraints/deadlines for publication and the public's need for more...entertainment value(?)...would all weigh on those producing the Book of Abraham narrative/text.

Don't forget that Joseph Smith proclaimed a revelation from God to the Twelve that the printing press management was under direct care from the Holy Spirit, thus God was at the helm.

I received the following revelation to the Twelve concerning the Times and Seasons.

Revelation

Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Joseph, go and say unto the Twelve, that it is my will to have them take in hand the editorial department of the Times and Seasons, according to that manifestation which shall be given unto them by the power of my Holy Spirit in the midst of their counsel, saith the Lord. Amen.

If there are elements that are controversial and/or found to be fabricated/imagined in order to increase 'audience appeal', that would not surprise me in the least.

What do you mean by, "If"? Are you not already convinced that there are controversial matters about the production of the Book of Abraham which are difficult to explain let alone defend? I'm surprised that you would not be surprised to learn that there could be fabricated/imagined elements added into the Book of Abraham presentation of the Times and Seasons to increase audience appeal. I'm honestly surprised you'd entertain that notion considering the power of the Holy Spirit was in the midst of their counsel.

That being said, I don't know that this would negate the possibility of Joseph having received revelation within the Book of Abraham narrative that teaches essential eternal truths in more detail...such as the pre-mortal spirit of man...first/second estate...etc.

You don't know? Obviously your testimony of this particular aspect is on shaky ground. I can appreciate that. I get that you're happy with the premortal doctrine and certain eternal things mentioned in the book, so you'll just take the whole thing as is and hope for the best. I understand your position.

And yes, I know some of these 'eternal truths' were being tossed around at the time and were 'in the air'. But that doesn't surprise me either that Joseph Smith and his companions would bring in 'truth' from wherever it might have sprung up in that fertile environment at the time.

I understand that. Things do tend to get around and people borrow from others to make their own stuff. You remind me of Led Zeppelin's Robert Plant who confessed in an interview to a little bit of honest thievery in producing great music.

See this 32 second clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdLYtJbbFNo

At the end of the day, I think Joseph believed that the scroll text that he was using to 'translate' helped him understand and deliver the 'world of Abraham' as a revelatory text couched in story/narrative that he may also have involved himself in as an author.

I understand your position. Whether Joseph Smith actually "believed" or not is debatable. There is a lot of evidence to show otherwise, or that he was committing fraud, knowingly.

Think of the Kinderhook Plates and the work that Don Bradley has done. Joseph was involved 'as a man' in that short translation snapshot he came up with. We don't have any evidence either way that he would have continued that project.

We will agree that the Kinderhook incident is not a faith promoting story or one the church likes to talk about. As an LDS apologist it made me cringe.

He did continue the Book of Abraham project and I see it as a mix of midrash/revelation/story. With God and man in the mix.

Ha, you remind me of Lucifer, you know: "We teach a religion made of the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture".

It happened in the Old Testament (New Testament also?)...why not the Book of Abraham?

Anyway, that's pretty much where I'll have to let the chips fall at this point. I can see where you're coming from and I don't fault you for that.

The chips are falling, my friend. Just not where you want them!

Pass the popcorn.

[_Shulem]

Granted, up to a point in my life...say into my early forties...I would agree with what you're saying. But after a person like me goes through an extended faith crisis and pretty much deconstructs and then reconstructs their faith...I don't think that holds true anymore.

Bear me your testimony that you know the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are the inspired words of God given to the Church through the instrumentality of the prophet Joseph Smith.

I want to hear you testify that you know those Explanations are true.

I want to take you down the rabbit hole.

[_mentalgymnast]

Granted, up to a point in my life...say into my early forties...I would agree with what you're saying. But after a person like me goes through an extended faith crisis and pretty much deconstructs and then reconstructs their faith...I don't think that holds true anymore.

Bear me your testimony that you know the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are the inspired words of God given to the Church through the instrumentality of the prophet Joseph Smith.

I want to hear you testify that you know those Explanations are true.

With the information that's available that's difficult to do. I'd have to go back and default to the missing scroll theory. That there's something missing.

But yeah, as far as you're concerned that's probably a cop out.

Regards,
MG

[_Shulem]

Pass the popcorn.

Woohoo, Book of Abraham and Facsimile No. 3!

Go mentalgymnast!

[_Shulem]

With the information that's available that's difficult to do. I'd have to go back and default to the missing scroll theory. That there's something missing.

But yeah, as far as you're concerned that's probably a cop out.

The missing scroll theory can't be applied to the Facsimile No. 3 debacle. Every single hieroglyph Joseph spied therein has been preserved in the Facsimile itself, nothing is lost. It's ALL there.

So, there is no falling back on the missing scroll theory when it comes to Facsimile No. 3, my friend.

[_mentalgymnast]

Pass the popcorn.

Woohoo, Book of Abraham and Facsimile No. 3!

Go mentalgymnast!

I suppose at this point you think you're eating troll, right?

I told you at the outset that I'm not in the same league with you on Book of Abraham. Sure you're going to enjoy the popcorn right about now.

But as you can see, I've given it some thought. At least more than the average guy on the pew.

A while back I asked you...disclaimer-at least I think I did (someone will probably go back and search to see if I actually did or not...sheesh)...whether or not you've ever sat on a panel with experts in Egyptology that are also faithful members of the church (I know that number is pretty small...) and had a back and forth panel discussion. If not, have you tried to arrange it, like at a FAIR conference or other venue?

Now that would be cool. I don't have any illusions that you can easily best me on this board in regards to Book of Abraham...but I'd love to see you go up against the 'big guns'. It's easy for you to diss them from a distance, which I'm sure you have.

It would be a LOT more interesting to see you do it up front and personal. I'd pay for a seat in the auditorium.

Regards,
MG

[_Philo Sofee]

Shulem handily defeats the missing scroll theory of the Book of Abraham. I love it when you post on this subject Shulem....... I always learn something instead of get obfuscation.

[_Themis]

With the information that's available that's difficult to do. I'd have to go back and default to the missing scroll theory. That there's something missing.

But yeah, as far as you're concerned that's probably a cop out.

The missing scroll theory can't be applied to the Facsimile No. 3 debacle. Every single hieroglyph Joseph spied therein has been preserved in the Facsimile itself, nothing is lost. It's ALL there.

So, there is no falling back on the missing scroll theory when it comes to Facsimile No. 3, my friend.

I love that you go to fac 3 all the time. It destroys the missing scroll theory and MG's nuanced/catalyst theory. He has avoided the problem with why Joseph would state the papyri is the writings of Abraham and Joseph, and fac 3 bring up another problem of Joseph claiming to translate certain Egyptian text we find on fac 3. Why would Joseph do this without God telling him? So far he is trying to make a quiet exit from his thread.

[_Shulem]

I suppose at this point you think you're eating troll, right?

That sounds like a reasonable assessment. I did promise to serve you up to the board as an offering.

I told you at the outset that I'm not in the same league with you on Book of Abraham. Sure you're going to enjoy the popcorn right about now

I know you're not in the same league. Few people are. But I'm confident that you're intelligent enough to grasp everything I tell you and sort it out logically.

But as you can see, I've given it some thought. At least more than the average guy on the pew.

Yes, you've given it some thought. I want you to give it more and don't cop out.

A while back I asked you...disclaimer-at least I think I did (someone will probably go back and search to see if I actually did or not...sheesh)...whether or not you've ever sat on a panel with experts in Egyptology that are also faithful members of the church (I know that number is pretty small...) and had a back and forth panel discussion. If not, have you tried to arrange it, like at a FAIR conference or other venue?

I've not been personally involved with anyone in Utah. I've had brief email correspondence with John Gee years ago and have consulted other professional Egyptologists over the years.

Now that would be cool. I don't have any illusions that you can easily best me on this board in regards to Book of Abraham...but I'd love to see you go up against the 'big guns'. It's easy for you to diss them from a distance, which I'm sure you have.

Yes, I realize it's easy for me to bounce you around and back you in a corner and you may feel somewhat intimidated. I can appreciate that. I don't think for a second that John Gee, probably the biggest gun in the LDS arsenal, would be able to defeat my argument. Believe me, he would not welcome that confrontation. It's never going to happen. He is a professional and must respect the integrity of his career the best he can. Should his colleagues learn that he went up against me in public they would go after him and dogpile him.

It would be a LOT more interesting to see you do it up front and personal. I'd pay for a seat in the auditorium.

Don't you think it's more exciting to be in the arena yourself, right here?

[_Jesse Pinkman]

I suppose at this point you think you're eating troll, right?

I told you at the outset that I'm not in the same league with you on Book of Abraham. Sure you're going to enjoy the popcorn right about now.

But as you can see, I've given it some thought. At least more than the average guy on the pew.

A while back I asked you...disclaimer-at least I think I did (someone will probably go back and search to see if I actually did or not...sheesh)...whether or not you've ever sat on a panel with experts in Egyptology that are also faithful members of the church (I know that number is pretty small...) and had a back and forth panel discussion. If not, have you tried to arrange it, like at a FAIR conference or other venue?

Now that would be cool. I don't have any illusions that you can easily best me on this board in regards to Book of Abraham...but I'd love to see you go up against the 'big guns'. It's easy for you to diss them from a distance, which I'm sure you have.

It would be a LOT more interesting to see you do it up front and personal. I'd pay for a seat in the auditorium.

Regards,
MG

I’m not sure whether or not you’re familiar with Paul’s story. Paul was a very faithful TBM for years and argued FOR the validity of the Book of Abraham against some of the best ex and anti-Mormons in the field.

When he discovered the debacle with Fac 3, and researched it extensively, he came to the conclusion that the Book of Abraham had to be a work solely created by Joseph Smith without any true Egyptian authenticity.

I honestly doubt anyone could be found who would have the guts to challenge Paul on this at Sunstone or anywhere else, because, frankly, he would mop the floor with them.

I agree; however, that it would be a fantastic show.