A few questions for Shulem

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_Shulem
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Shulem »

fetchface wrote:So how does the church's essay on the Book of Abraham deal with the mistranslations of the characters in Facsimile 3? Surely they clear things up there, right?


The church essay failed miserably. The reporting and the commentary offered by the church is deceptive and carefully crafted to avoid the real issues.

Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham

I commented on this, somewhat, here:

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35135
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _fetchface »

Shulem wrote:The church essay failed miserably. The reporting and the commentary offered by the church is deceptive and carefully crafted to avoid the real issues.

Huh, the church just avoids the real issues? There has to be some mistake here. I thought the essays were meant to really get out there and offer authoritative commentary on the hard stuff.
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_Shulem
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Shulem »

fetchface wrote:
Shulem wrote:The church essay failed miserably. The reporting and the commentary offered by the church is deceptive and carefully crafted to avoid the real issues.

Huh, the church just avoids the real issues? There has to be some mistake here. I thought the essays were meant to really get out there and offer authoritative commentary on the hard stuff.


The essays are short doses of faith medicine to help with some ailments. They are not a cure and are extremely biased. They are designed to help keep a certain percentage of questioning members from leaving the fold altogether. It's like a lawyer defending his client. It wouldn't matter if the accused was caught in the very act of committing murder. "My client is innocent of all the charges".
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Shulem »

MG,

Here are 4 bottles of Snapple Iced Tea which you may have if you will deny the revelations of Facsimile No. 3 as presently constituted in LDS canon.


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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _fetchface »

Shulem wrote:The essays are short doses of faith medicine to help with some ailments. They are not a cure and are extremely biased. They are designed to help keep a certain percentage of questioning members from leaving the fold altogether.


I became disillusioned with the church before the essays came out, but I remember thinking as they were released that the church had clearly written off the analytical thinkers like me. They weren't even going to try. Honestly, I don't think that the brethren could try to address Facsimile 3 directly. It would be too uncomfortable for them. Do you remember the look on Holland's face when that guy confronted him about the Book of Abraham on that Mitt Romney documentary? That was pure fear.

Anyway, your posting style cracks me up. I'm loving this thread.
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Tator »

I see that the fruit of the tree is good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, so take some and eat it.

Paul you are such a temptress.
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_mentalgymnast
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Shulem wrote:Don't you think it's more exciting to be in the arena yourself, right here?


mentalgymnast wrote:No way. :smile:


Themis wrote:That's because you don't want the truth. I notice this is all your posts. You have a chance to learn a lot about the Book of Abraham issue you have admitted you don't know much about, but are trying to bow out. If you were looking for the truth you would take a student type role and ask many questions to understand the issue. Why not do that now when you have someone like Shulem who can help you much better understand the Book of Abraham issue?


I am not opposed to whatever the truth might be at all. And in fact, truth be told, over the years it is the Book of Abraham that I've spent the least amount of time on although I've spent my fair share. Enough to know what the problems are. I appreciate the links Fence Sitter posted. I had read the Ritner vs. Gee(?) back and forth that went on a year or two(?) ago and was familiar with that. I have the "Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham” link/essay tabbed and am going to read it. As far as "bowing out", it's not like you can continue in a discussion with an expert if you're not up to par with that expert. I readily admitted I'm not an expert on the Book of Abraham. As far as asking questions my preference is to read first, ask questions later. If I have any questions after reading Ritner's essay, I will be sure to ask.

By the way, the reason I said "no way" up above is I'm not all that hep on being out in an arena alone with lions coming in one by one ready to get some flesh. I'd rather be out there with other gladiators at my side. Alas, this arena doesn't work that way. So yeah, it's uncomfortable.

Regards
MG
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Jesse Pinkman wrote:I’m not sure whether or not you’re familiar with Paul’s story. Paul was a very faithful TBM for years and argued FOR the validity of the Book of Abraham against some of the best ex and anti-Mormons in the field.


Yep, I am. I was around for that and Kerry Shirts. In fact, I bought the DVD set Kerry put out on the Book of Abraham. And listened to his presentations at FAIR. I never heard Paul in person as far as I can remember. But I knew that he knew his stuff.

Regards,
MG
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _Shulem »

mentalgymnast wrote:I am not opposed to whatever the truth might be at all. And in fact, truth be told, over the years it is the Book of Abraham that I've spent the least amount of time on although I've spent my fair share. Enough to know what the problems are.


You know more about Book of Abraham problems than the key persons who supervised the printing press for the Times and Seasons as previously shown in one of my earlier posts, namely: Joseph Smith, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and Reuben Hedlock.

Compared to them, in my humble opinion, you are an expert!

Suppose if you will, knowing all that you know now, if you could go back in time and meet up with those fellows in Nauvoo, surely there would be a certain level of nervousness in discussing the Book of Abraham translation with original apostles of Mormonism. Let's play a game. Suppose you were alone with elder Taylor and elder Woodruff. Suppose both of those men bore their testimony to you that they knew the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 were true and correct translations of Egyptian into English, and they got this testimony from the burning of the bosom given them by the Holy Spirit. Then, elder Taylor turns and asks you pointedly, "Do you have a testimony of these things too"?

What would be your reply, mentalgymnast? Every man deserves an answer especially apostles of the Lord.
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Re: A few questions for Shulem

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Shulem wrote:
You know more about Book of Abraham problems than the key persons who supervised the printing press for the Times and Seasons as previously shown in one of my earlier posts, namely: Joseph Smith, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and Reuben Hedlock.


OK, here's the thing. Studies of the Book of Abraham have produced a treasure trove of research and information. The fact is, there is a lot we know and a lot we don't know in full. The research is wonderfully complex with all kind of convoluted answers from both the critics and the apologists. One apologist that I don't think we've mentioned in this thread (I could be mistaken) is Kerry Muhlestein. I think this final comment he made in a rather long essay is worth thinking about:

there are many concepts having to do with the Book of Abraham that we are still trying to understand. Do we currently have all the answers? Certainly not. Do we have better answers than our critics? Unabashedly yes. Do we understand as much as we would like? No, and this is part of why we are in such an intensive study of the Book of Abraham. There are so many things we want to understand and so many fruitful avenues of research. I expect that I will spend my life trying to better understand this wonderfully complex book and its accompanying story. Will questions arise in the future for which we will not immediately have answers? Undoubtedly. Are there questions that arise from the facsimiles that I cannot explain now? Yes. Joseph identifies certain people in Facsimile 3 and points out that their names are indicated by the hieroglyphs over their heads. As I translate these hieroglyphs, they do not match Joseph’s interpretations. There are some facts that cast light on this. I am not disturbed by Joseph labeling Figure 2 as a male when the picture and text identify a female. This happened more often in Egyptian papyri than one would think. Strikingly, the ancient owner of Facsimile 3 was pictured as both a male and female in his own Book of the Dead. Yet this does not fully satisfy my questions about how I understand the labels Egyptologically as opposed to how Joseph Smith understood them.

While I am not satisfied with the answer thus far, I am not concerned. During more than a decade of research on this subject, I have often found that I have misunderstood the Book of Abraham and made incorrect assumptions about it. Even more frequently I have found mistakes and inaccuracies in my own professional discipline, Egyptology. We are a fairly young discipline, and just as research on the Book of Abraham is a work in progress, so is Egyptology as a whole. Our history as a discipline is full of gaffes, mistakes, stumbles, and wonderful discoveries and corrections. Many of these corrections have been immensely helpful in my efforts to understand the Book of Abraham.

Thus, while there are questions which have not been fully answered, I know that the search for answers is part of scholarly progress. As an Egyptologist I have far more unanswered questions regarding Egyptian history than I have regarding the Book of Abraham. I was once dissatisfied with the question of human sacrifice as depicted in Facsimile 1, and no answer appeared to be forthcoming. But we have learned more, and now I am satisfied. I once was dissatisfied with explanations of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, but as we have done further research I have become satisfied (though I still have questions as to what they really represent). Claims of textual anachronisms once gave me pause, but research has answered each of these questions. How grateful I am that I did not abandon my faith over these questions, for they have now been answered so well. As we wrestle with these issues, undoubtedly both critics and defenders will make missteps along the way. Most likely there will be questions for which we will not find answers in my lifetime. Perhaps we will in the next. We have eventually found answers to past questions, so I research furiously but wait patiently for answers to current ones.

https://rsc.BYU.edu/archived/volume-11- ... nd-answers


I know you're an expert Paul. I know Kerry Muhlestein is an expert and an Egyptologist. I have seem him and others ridiculed on this board. Ritner is used as the example of how an Egyptologist fatally slayed the apologists. But a layperson finds themself caught in the middle between two groups of people. Those that have evidence that they believe destroys the Book of Abraham and those that believe they have evidence that supports the Book of Abraham. I can't help but think that one's worldview also enters into which of these two camps. Of course each group is going to say "Come, we have the truth!"

I want to find out more, and read more about the Book of Abraham. Like I said, this is one area that I haven't studied as deeply as some others. Should I simply take Paul's word for it that Fac.3 is the 'smoking gun'? I don't think that would be wise. If I was convinced through deeper study that he has the upper hand over Kerry Muhlestein, Gee, and others (can you recommend other good researchers out there?) then I would have some adjustments to make. I am not at that place. How do I know, for a fact, that others here on this isolated board in the universe of boards/forums have actually given the time and effort to look at all the evidence, including those somewhat complex arguments for antiquity given by Muhlestein and Co.?

I don't.

But I do want to read the paper Fence Sitter linked to and I want to spend some more time with Kerry Muhlestein's paper I linked to above and gain some further light and knowledge on this topic. Others that haven't covered all the bases...I'd suggest the same thing. Those that have covered ALL the bases...awesome. :smile:

Regards,
MG
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