What is an anti-Mormon?

[_Niadna]

Hey grindael, Niadna so needs to have her ass kicked.

quite possibly.

but you aren't going to be the one to do it.

[_Shulem]

As it happens, the destruction of the PRESS was legal...and found to be so in a court of law the following fall. Gov. Ford wrote about it in his 'History of Illinois" (if you want the reference I'll get it for you...I have no clue why I don't have that one on my desk top. Shoot, I SHOULD have the thing memorized by now...Oh, well...) HE, (Gov. Ford) was disgusted by the whole mess; a sort of 'a pox on both their houses' sort of thing.

Nonsense. The matter would have gone all the way to the Supreme Court and the Mormons would have been found guilty of breaking the law.

This from Wikepedia:

I now express to you my opinion that your conduct in the destruction of the press was a very gross outrage upon the laws and the liberties of the people. It may have been full of libels, but this did not authorize you to destroy it. There are many newspapers in this state which have been wrongfully abusing me for more than a year, and yet such is my regard for the liberty of the press and the rights of a free people in a republican government that I would shed the last drop of my blood to protect those presses from any illegal violence.

Destruction of the press was immoral, illegal, and an attack on the Constitution of the United States. Smith deserved to die. The Mormons committed an outrage.

[_Shulem]

Hey grindael, Niadna so needs to have her ass kicked.

quite possibly.

but you aren't going to be the one to do it.

I don't need to. Anubis a mighty god of Egypt will do it for me. YOU are a racist just as Joseph Smith was.

[_Shulem]

Exactly how is the church going to 'accept gays' in a way that it does not now?

I'm curious.

...........and no, I honestly don't think I'm going to live to see it happen.

Gay love is not a sin. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints no longer condemns loving and committed gay relationships.

It's coming.

[_Lemmie]

Can you please provide the contemporary reference where Joseph said he would pay for it, (and the quote) not just a page number in a book. Thank you.

Sounds like Niadna is getting the book, in the meantime the reference seems to come from Fairmormon:

The law of the day probably gave Joseph and the council the right to destroy the offending issue; however, since they had also ordered the press and type destroyed, they violated property laws. Joseph later said he would be happy to pay for the damages.[22]

[22] James B. Allen and Glen M. Leonard, Story of the Latter-day Saints, 2nd edition revised and enlarged, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1992[1976]), 208. ISBN 087579565X. GospeLink (requires subscrip.)

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/City ... te_note-22

As it happens, the destruction of the PRESS was legal

not according to the Fairmormon source you used above.

[_grindael]

I thought so... Getting stuff from FAIRMORMON, huh?

I have the book. Here is what it says,

John Taylor, Willard Richards, Dan Jones, Stephen Markham, and John S. Fullmer accompanied Joseph and Hyrum to jail. When Jones, Markham, and Fullmer left on errands, they were refused reentrance. On June 26, Governor Ford visited the jail. In the discussion that followed, Joseph Smith defended his mobilization of the legion as a precautionary measure. He explained that he had no intention of invading non-Mormon regions as his accusers claimed. He also satisfied the governor concerning the city council's action and offered to pay for the property damaged if that would appease those plotting his destruction.

So, where is that discussion written down? Not in Joseph's diary, since they stopped recording it before this. Joseph had written a defiant letter to Ford on the 22nd, and "offered to make things right", but that is so vague that it's laughable and obviously done to try and mitigate the damage.

Joseph is here in jail, and then he says, I'll pay for the damages? He would have said anything at that point. And what he did was NOT legal. That is why they then revoked the Nauvoo Charter, because they were abusing State and Federal laws under it. Illinois law stated:

"22. The printing presses shall be free to every person, who undertakes to examine the proceedings of the general assembly or of any branch of government; and no law shall ever be made to restrain the right thereof. The free communication of thoughts and opinions is one of the invaluable rights of man, and every citizen may freely speak, write, and print on any subject, being responsible for the abuse of that liberty.
"23. In prosecutions for the publication of papers investigating the official conduct of officers, or of men acting in a public capacity, or where the matter published is proper for public information, the truth thereof may be given in evidence. And in all indictments for libels, the jury shall have the right of determining both the law and the fact, under the direction of the court as in other cases." (Art. VIII, cl. 22–23).

Joseph Smith went to HIS City Council. He did not follow Illinois law. Even Dallin Oaks said that the destruction of the printing press itself was probably outside of the council's legal authority, and its owners could have sued for damages.

Stop trusting FAIRMORMON and go to the actual documents. I'm still looking for that conversation Joseph supposedly had with Ford. Do you have a reference for it?

[_Shulem]

Joseph Smith went to HIS City Council. He did not follow Illinois law. Even Dallin Oaks said that the destruction of the printing press itself was probably outside of the council's legal authority, and its owners could have sued for damages.

Probably -- meaning, most assuredly. Typical Mormon apologetics. Mormon apologists are liars.

[_grindael]

I did some digging and found it, it is from the Manuscript history of the church compiled in the 1850's and printed in the History of the Church. It says that Smith told Ford,

Joseph said we were willing to pay for the press, as he did not want the owners to suffer any loss by it, neither did he wish such a libelous paper to be published in Nauvoo.

Joseph NEVER offered to pay for the press. In fact he was happy with what he'd done and that he had driven the Laws out of Nauvoo. Joseph never offered to pay for the damages because he claimed he had done nothing wrong, and went before a court IN NAUVOO and was acquitted of any wrong doing. Yet, here is what Joseph did admit to in his diary,

Monday, June 10[th] 1844 In City Council from 10 to 1:20 P.M. and from 2:20 to 5:30 P.M. investigating the Merits of the Nauvoo Expositor, Laws, Higbee, Fosters &c. Council passed an ordinance concerning Libels and for other purposes, also issued an order to me to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor establishment as a nuisance. I immediately ordered the marshal to destroy it without delay. At the same issued an order to Jonathan Dunham, acting Major Gen[eral] Nauvoo Legion to asssist the Marshall with the Legion if called upon so to do. And about 8 o'clock the Marshall reported that he had removed the press, type, and printed papers and fixtures into the street and fired them.

This was done because of the libellous character of the paper. In slandering the Municipality of the city. The possey consisting of some hundred returned with the Marshal in front of the Mansion and I gave them a short address told them they had done right. That they had executed my orders required of me by the city council that I would never submit to have another libellous publication in [print] established in this city. That I cared not how many papers there were in the city if they would print the truth but would submit to no libellis or slander from them. The speech was loudly greeted by 3 cheers 3 times. The posse dispersed all in good order. Scott H. Faulring, An American Prophet's Record, p.489

And on June 22, he said this about his enemies,

[June 22] 6 P.M. Prophesied that /in/ the sickly season that sickness would enter into their houses and vex them until they would fain repent in dust and ashes and they will be smitten with the scab &c.

He wasn't going to pay for anything. The Manuscript History is an apologetic, written long after the events had transpired.

[_grindael]

On Page 326 of the History of Illinois, Ford says it was illegal. https://books.google.com/books?id=GAyA6 ... &q&f=false

[_schreech]

Well, at this point, I can only assume that we will see niadna return, admit he/she was mistaken and reevaluate his/her belief in the Mormon church and the reliability of the spirit that he/she uses to inform her failed defenses and untrue belief in imaginary foundational stories. I mean, that’s what a normal person does when they realize their beliefs are based on faulty and/or fabricated “knowledge” right? Reevaluate and consider that if they are wrong about something this basic then maybe they are wrong about all kinds of things and, man, there are all kinds of wrong things taught in the Mormon church...that’s what led me and Millions of others out of Mormonism or the churches they born into. Conditioning and socialization can’t make up for completely fabricated foundational stories.