What is an anti-Mormon?

[Guest]

On Page 326 of the History of Illinois, Ford says it was illegal. https://books.google.com/books?id=GAyA6 ... &q&f=false

No he doesn't. He disapproves of it, but page 326 doesn't mention the legality of the destruction of the press at all. He goes on and on about how inadvisable it was, but not its legality. As well, he wasn't in any position to declare the legality of anything. That's a matter for the law courts.

I also never claimed that Gov. Ford was enamored of the Mormons or of Mormonism. He wasn't.

Go a little further down, to page 368 and 369. My claim was that the destruction of the press was found to have been legal in a court of law. Gov. Ford didn't LIKE it, but then he didn't like the results of the trial of the men who committed the 'foul murder' (his words) of Joseph Smith, either.

.....as I said, "a pox on both their houses."

I found Gov. Ford's book to be a very interesting read, as it was written by someone who was absolutely disgusted by the entire situation. I mean, really; if you can't have a truly objective and unbiased observer, the next best is someone who dislikes everybody involved. ;)

[_Niadna]

Well, at this point, I can only assume that we will see niadna return, admit he/she was mistaken and reevaluate his/her belief in the Mormon church and the reliability of the spirit that he/she uses to inform her failed defenses and untrue belief in imaginary foundational stories. I mean, that’s what a normal person does when they realize their beliefs are based on faulty and/or fabricated “knowledge” right? Reevaluate and consider that if they are wrong about something this basic then maybe they are wrong about all kinds of things and, man, there are all kinds of wrong things taught in the Mormon church...that’s what led me and Millions of others out of Mormonism or the churches they born into. Conditioning and socialization can’t make up for completely fabricated foundational stories.

uhmn....no.

When I am wrong about something I will certainly acknowledge it.

But in this case?

I'm not wrong. The destruction of the press WAS found to be legal, and Joseph Smith did offer to pay for the destroyed type. I gave the references for both. The actual quote for the offer to pay for the type is going to have to wait for a few days because I don't have the book yet, but as soon as it gets here I'll give you the precise wording.

In the meantime, this has been alluded to in several places. Joseph Smith acknowledged that while the destruction of the press was legal, the destruction of the TYPE was not and was willing to pay for that.

[_Shulem]

The destruction of the press WAS found to be legal

No, it was not. It was illegal THEN and it is illegal NOW. There is no legal justification for this unlawful act. It was a violation of the Constitutional rights afforded to all citizens of the United States of America. Joseph Smith and his criminal gang committed a crime against the state, a crime against the Constitution, a crime against the very fabric in which this country was founded. You can be absolutely sure that the Supreme Court of the United States in any generation since the founding of the Constitution would have found Joseph Smith guilty.

You, Niandna, are guilty of justifying crimes committed by your founding prophet who committed unlawful acts and treaded over the Constitutional rights of free Americans. You, Niandna, are not a good citizen of these United States. You fail to defend the Constitution and instead elect to defend a sexual predator who was a habitual liar and a common thief. You partake of Joseph Smith's shame and are JUST as guilty. I don't think you're a good person.

[_grindael]

You really have no comprehension skills. Ford says this,

"they in their turn got a favorable jury determined upon acquittal and yet the Mormon JURORS all swore that they had formed no opinion as to the guilt or innocence of their accused friends. It seems the law furnished the means of of suiting each party (for the murder & the press) with a jury. The Mormons could have a Mormon jury, to be tried by, selected by themselves and the anti-Mormons ... could have one from the anti-Mormons...

No wonder you didn't quote this and instead chose to summarize it. Ford does claim earlier in the book it was illegal, and here he said that the declaration of innocence was because of a bad jury, and that both the Mormons and anti-Mormons were doing the same thing.

You cannot go with either verdict, you must throw them all out. They let the murderers of Joseph go scott free, and those that destroyed the press also. In both cases Ford laments that it was a travesty of justice. Claiming that what Joseph did was legal based on this is simply and utterly disingenuous.

I think the Koolaid you are drinking has addled your brain.

[_grindael]

I guess you are not reading my posts either. I already provided the EXACT quote and explained it. Take off the blinders and you will stop falling in ditches.

[_Niadna]

The destruction of the press WAS found to be legal

No, it was not. It was illegal THEN and it is illegal NOW. There is no legal justification for this unlawful act. It was a violation of the Constitutional rights afforded to all citizens of the United States of America. Joseph Smith and his criminal gang committed a crime against the state, a crime against the Constitution, a crime against the very fabric in which this country was founded. You can be absolutely sure that the Supreme Court of the United States in any generation since the founding of the Constitution would have found Joseph Smith guilty.

You, Niandna, are guilty of justifying crimes committed by your founding prophet who committed unlawful acts and treaded over the Constitutional rights of free Americans. You, Niandna, are not a good citizen of these United States. You fail to defend the Constitution and instead elect to defend a sexual predator who was a habitual liar and a common thief. You partake of Joseph Smith's shame and are JUST as guilty. I don't think you're a good person.

If I am guilty of the things you claim, then you are doubly so, because you have not condemned the burning of the Jackson county press in equally scathing terms, nor have you condemned anything done TO the Mormons.

I really dislike hypocrisy.

.....and I never justified the destruction of the Nauvoo press. I said that it was found to be legal in a court of law. It was.

[_grindael]

Here is what Ford said about the

press on page 325, (sorry, it starts on that page),

It appeared CLEARLY both from the complaints of the citizens and the acknowledgments of the Mormon committee that the WHOLE PROCEEDINGS OF THE MAYOR, the common council, and the municipal court, WERE IRREGULAR AND ILLEGAL, and not to be endured in a free country... The common council VIOLATED THE LAW in assuming the exercise of judicial power; in proceeding ex parte without notice to the owners of the property; in proceeding against the property in rem; in not calling a jury; in now swearing all the witnesses; in not giving the owners of the property, accusing of being a nuisance, in consequence of being libelous, an opportunity of giving the truth in evidence; and in fact, by not proceeding by civil suit or indictment, as in other cases of libel. THE MAYOR VIOLATED THE LAW IN ORDERING THIS ERRONEOUS AND ABSURD JUDGMENT OF THE COMMON COUNCIL TO BE EXECUTED. AND THE MUNICIPAL COURT ERRED IN DISCHARGING THEM FROM ARREST.

You are simply WRONG, and obviously can't comprehend what you are reading, if you indeed did read it.

[_grindael]

It wasn't found to be LEGAL, they acquitted the people who destroyed it of wrongdoing. A BIG DIFFERENCE. And the jury was tampered with, as Ford attests. But keep drinking your koolaid and making your silly claims, you only make yourself look ridiculous.

[_Shulem]

I think the Koolaid you are drinking has addled your brain.

Niadna, Niadna. Know ye not that Joseph Smith was a liar? Open your eyes and let light into your brain for gawd sakes.

[_Maksutov]

Brigham Young was a sex trafficker, racist, liar, terrorist, traitor, thief and murderer. He was about as holy and inspired as Genghis Khan. A vast artifice of lies is required to obscure these facts, and a sad group of humans is committed to denying their reality.