Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory

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_Fence Sitter
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Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Themis wrote:
ClarkGoble wrote:I don't have a problem with evolution. I just think there were pre-Adamites. i.e. Adam is father by adoption not necessarily birth.


It never made sense if humans were already running around the earth why you would need Adam and Eve. The story is about how humans came about. Just like there was no tower of babel, but it was a story that came about explaining why we see so many different people and languages.


Yeah, the "pre-Adamite" explanation actually raises more questions than it solves from a Mormon theological point of view.Claiming pre-Adamites changes early biblical stories like the flood and Garden of Eden into myths and is pretty much just a step before claiming Adam & Eve are just myths too.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Maksutov
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Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory

Post by _Maksutov »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Yeah, the "pre-Adamite" explanation actually raises more questions than it solves from a Mormon theological point of view.Claiming pre-Adamites changes early biblical stories like the flood and Garden of Eden into myths and is pretty much just a step before claiming Adam & Eve are just myths too.


This is cool. Not only does it leave room for pre-Nephites and pre-Jaredites, it leaves room for pre-God, pre-Jesus, pre-Satan, pre-Holy Spirit and all the ponderizing and merchandising that comes with them. :biggrin:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_ClarkGoble
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Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory

Post by _ClarkGoble »

Fence Sitter wrote:Yeah, the "pre-Adamite" explanation actually raises more questions than it solves from a Mormon theological point of view.Claiming pre-Adamites changes early biblical stories like the flood and Garden of Eden into myths and is pretty much just a step before claiming Adam & Eve are just myths too.


I don't think that follows. After all Joseph had already pretty well made where Adam and Eve were expelled to as Missouri. The Garden of Eden seems different. If you're a "no death before the fall" type then the Garden of Eden is really the whole planet and the planet as a whole falls with Adam. I don't think that makes any sense at all. The other view (which lines up much better with heavenly ascent literature from the 1st century) is that Eden is a heaven closer to heaven. That is, a different place from this world. The text pretty well suggests that since an angel is guarding the entrance - this later becomes angelic guardians for each level in heavenly ascents during the apocalypse literary period. In Nauvoo Mormonism they adopt the Masonic tyler to become this angel guardian the endowment where there is a return via a heavenly ascent. (Not really part of the contemporary endowment except a trace where the guy checks you before going up the elevator when you've received your name)

So Eden really isn't an issue if it's already an other heaven. Traditionally the 3rd and there are hints Joseph knew this based upon how he comments upon Paul's visit to the third heaven. I'd have to check but there may be part of the tradition in Masonry as well.

Anyway, with pre-Adamites you have Adam and Eve cast out of Eden into an already existing Missouri (or somewhere else if one doesn't trust Joseph there). No need to assume it's a myth.

The flood likewise is dealt with. Most of the apologists were pushing for a local flood long ago. It was ubiquitous in the 90's. Even way back Nibley had pushed a spectator theory where Noah could only describe what he saw, and if it looked like everything was flooded that's what he wrote. Joseph, according to one account, had Noah living in the Carolinas so it could easily be explained as a local hurricane that wiped out the people.

From a more contemporary view, one can easily adopt the Documentary Hypothesis here. We know that the Noah account was a combination of at least two accounts compiled into its present form by the Priestly tradition most likely in the post-exilic period. As such, it's already corrupt textually. So that offers an easy third way between so-called "literalism" and myth.
_spotlight
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Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory

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ClarkGoble wrote:Anyway, with pre-Adamites you have Adam and Eve cast out of Eden into an already existing Missouri (or somewhere else if one doesn't trust Joseph there). No need to assume it's a myth. .


So Adam's biological father is?

And he lives for over 900 years while the pre-Adamites live normal short life-spans? And yet their DNA is compatible enough to intermarry?

The endogenous retroviruses in our DNA prove we are related to the other apes. Did they exist in Adam's DNA? If not, his DNA would be less like the pre-Adamites DNA (and our current DNA) than that of a chimp's.

This doesn't even begin to make any sense.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_ClarkGoble
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Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory

Post by _ClarkGoble »

spotlight wrote:So Adam's biological father is?


Don't think there need be a fixed answer there. One could come up with different interpretations. One is that Eden is a terrestrial world and that Adam and Eve there weren't biologically humans although they were functionally human. The fall, if one takes it historically, would thus becoming like the humans already living on earth. But there's lots of other possibilities.

And he lives for over 900 years while the pre-Adamites live normal short life-spans? And yet their DNA is compatible enough to intermarry?


Those adopting these positions will, partially on the basis of the Documentary Hypothesis and partially on the basis of the warning about scriptural corruption in Nephi's vision, simply attribute a large degree of corruption to the Old Testament. So they're not bound to take the ages seriously.

The endogenous retroviruses in our DNA prove we are related to the other apes. Did they exist in Adam's DNA? If not, his DNA would be less like the pre-Adamites DNA (and our current DNA) than that of a chimp's.


The whole idea in this model is that the fall is becoming a fallen human and thus having DNA. I rather doubt resurrected bodies are tied to the chemistry of DNA even if they have the appearance of human bodies.

This doesn't even begin to make any sense.


Hope that helps.
_Themis
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Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory

Post by _Themis »

ClarkGoble wrote:The whole idea in this model is that the fall is becoming a fallen human and thus having DNA. I rather doubt resurrected bodies are tied to the chemistry of DNA even if they have the appearance of human bodies.


Always fun when one has no constraints to make up BS to fit what they want to believe. Maybe I should start taking LOTR more seriously as history.
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_Maksutov
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Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory

Post by _Maksutov »

Themis wrote:
ClarkGoble wrote:The whole idea in this model is that the fall is becoming a fallen human and thus having DNA. I rather doubt resurrected bodies are tied to the chemistry of DNA even if they have the appearance of human bodies.


Always fun when one has no constraints to make up BS to fit what they want to believe. Maybe I should start taking Lord of the Rings more seriously as history.


I believe this is called "Studying it out in your mind". :lol:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_spotlight
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Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory

Post by _spotlight »

ClarkGoble wrote:Those adopting these positions will, partially on the basis of the Documentary Hypothesis and partially on the basis of the warning about scriptural corruption in Nephi's vision, simply attribute a large degree of corruption to the Old Testament. So they're not bound to take the ages seriously.

So the book of Moses is deprecated now?
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_spotlight
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Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory

Post by _spotlight »

Clark Goble wrote:It's not necessarily exponential growth. That presupposes each individual creates their own universe.

It presupposes each individual that makes it to the highest degree of the celestial gets to have offspring, and that more than one of those becomes exalted having offspring themselves and so on whether or not this happens in the same universe or within a multiverse.

While that's a popular view there's really no evidence for it and arguably some evidence that creation is a collective endeavor. In that case it'd be linear.

Please elaborate here. I have no idea what this means. I am referring to creation being a collective endeavor in reference to giving birth to offspring and how that makes the population growth of gods linear. When someone makes the highest degree of the Celestial and has a continuation of the seeds forevermore they don't actually use that seed to produce offspring?

Although of course when dealing with infinity the difference between linear and exponential doesn't matter much.

An ever increasing rate of consumption of matter for god bodies is not possible in a single universe. The boundary of that space occupied by god bodies would have to accelerate and would approach the speed of light which itself would require an energy input that approaches infinity. If there is a multiverse then the problem still exists as the creation of additional universes to shovel the god bodies into has to accelerate. It's nonsense. It's the principle behind a nuclear bomb. A single bacterium if allowed to double every half hour would result in a mass equivalent of the earth in a few days and if allowed to continue beyond that for a couple more days would achieve an equivalent mass of the entire known universe.

Effectively Sherem is asking for the theophany without being ready for it. And as Indiana Jones found out, that doesn’t work too well for the wicked.

I'd also like a primer on how glorified resurrected bodies fit in with the standard model of particle physics - if you have the time.
What problem do you see?

The problem is the idea that the manner in which the matter of one's body reacts to the same physical stimulus depends upon righteousness or a lack thereof.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_spotlight
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Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory

Post by _spotlight »

Themis wrote:
ClarkGoble wrote:The whole idea in this model is that the fall is becoming a fallen human and thus having DNA. I rather doubt resurrected bodies are tied to the chemistry of DNA even if they have the appearance of human bodies.


Always fun when one has no constraints to make up BS to fit what they want to believe. Maybe I should start taking Lord of the Rings more seriously as history.


Image
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
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