Book of Mormon: "never again will it be known as a simple hoax."

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_Meadowchik
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Re: Book of Mormon: "never again will it be known as a simpl

Post by _Meadowchik »

Lemmie wrote: Is 'sound' now one of tapir Dan's loan-shifted words, like horse? Does it now mean 'ridiculous' ?


Of course, because Dan is a transhumanist who believes in an infinite number of multidimensional lives, where there are uncountably infinite versions of himself testing out all possible iterations of every path to God or belief. All those lifetimes will merge at some point and draw their conclusions based on the collected observations. In this dimension, he is intellectually obligated to continue down the path of blind faith in an improbable, esoteric, and demonstrably immoral belief system, otherwise his efforts won't be in good faith, and his results will then be illegitimate. So you see, what he's really doing is contributing collectively to infinite other dimensions of Dans. One day, all will be revealed and his sweat and faith will be rewarded.

It's really just that simple.
_Lemmie
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Re: Book of Mormon: "never again will it be known as a simpl

Post by _Lemmie »

Meadowchik wrote:
Lemmie wrote: Is 'sound' now one of tapir Dan's loan-shifted words, like horse? Does it now mean 'ridiculous' ?


Of course, because Dan is a transhumanist who believes in an infinite number of multidimensional lives, where there are uncountably infinite versions of himself testing out all possible iterations of every path to God or belief. All those lifetimes will merge at some point and draw their conclusions based on the collected observations. In this dimension, he is intellectually obligated to continue down the path of blind faith in an improbable, esoteric, and demonstrably immoral belief system, otherwise his efforts won't be in good faith, and his results will then be illegitimate. So you see, what he's really doing is contributing collectively to infinite other dimensions of Dans. One day, all will be revealed and his sweat and faith will be rewarded.

It's really just that simple.

Awesome, Meadowchik. Simply awesome.

Penny: [dancing and singing along to the radio] "I'm goin' out tonight / I'm feelin' alright /Gonna let it all hang out / Wanna make some noise really raise my voice / Yeah, I wanna scream and shout. Ah. No-"

Morning, Sheldon. Come dance with me.

Sheldon Cooper: No.

Penny: Why not?

Sheldon Cooper: [turns radio off] Penny, while I subscribe to the "Many Worlds" theory which posits the existence of an infinite number of Sheldons in an infinite number of universes, I assure you that in none of them am I dancing.

Penny: Are you fun in any of them?

Sheldon Cooper: The math would suggest that in a few I'm a clown made of candy. But I don't dance.

I'm guessing we got the clown made of candy that refuses to dance.
_Meadowchik
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Re: Book of Mormon: "never again will it be known as a simpl

Post by _Meadowchik »

Lemmie wrote:I'm guessing we got the clown made of candy that refuses to dance.


Yes, we just might have!

"So, you're tellin' me there's a chance!"

https://youtu.be/zMRrNY0pxfM
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Book of Mormon: "never again will it be known as a simpl

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Lemmie wrote:Even if they don't believe Smith dictated the book from his head but rather dictated it from a written source, they should be considering it as an alternative hypothesis. It's too bad that they are quite studiously ignoring this 'oral text' alternative, because it is quite compelling as an explanation.

I guess this means Skousen wasted the last 25 years of his life and the Mormon Interpreter wasted $150,000 they could have used for other projects.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Regardless of the source of the pre-written text--Spalding's manuscript or the seer stone--Skousen has been saying for years that the text was dictated, just like Lemmie explained.

Skousen is indeed giving us the actual words that were dictated, regardless of the written source thereof. . . so the 25 years weren't wasted.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Dr Exiled
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Re: Book of Mormon: "never again will it be known as a simpl

Post by _Dr Exiled »

If this helps to convince some that Mormonism was invented like all the other religions, then perhaps time wasn't wasted. Otherwise, it seems like they wasted a lot of time and money restoring the original hoax text that the author thought nothing of when he buried it.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_Lemmie
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Re: Book of Mormon: "never again will it be known as a simpl

Post by _Lemmie »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Lemmie wrote:Even if they don't believe Smith dictated the book from his head but rather dictated it from a written source, they should be considering it as an alternative hypothesis. It's too bad that they are quite studiously ignoring this 'oral text' alternative, because it is quite compelling as an explanation.

I guess this means Skousen wasted the last 25 years of his life and the Mormon Interpreter wasted $150,000 they could have used for other projects.
dr s wrote:I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Regardless of the source of the pre-written text--Spalding's manuscript or the seer stone--Skousen has been saying for years that the text was dictated, just like Lemmie explained.

Skousen is indeed giving us the actual words that were dictated, regardless of the written source thereof. . . so the 25 years weren't wasted.
I take your point about Skousens work, but I will disagree that it is definite that Skousen is giving us the actual words, which is what I took Everybody Wang Chung to mean.

Gadianton pointed out that the majority of the work was not extant and was reconstructed solely by Skousen, and whether his biases were conscious or unconscious, we essentially have in Skousen's work only one single man's unevaluated opinion on what almost 3/4ths of it really said:
The Book of Mormon: The Earliest Text wrote:
A typographical facsimile of the surviving pages of the original manuscript.....even greater problem is that 72 percent of that document is no longer extant. In contrast, the printer's manuscript...intact since 1903..RLDS...fill in the gaps of original...comparisons reveal that Oliver made about three textual mistakes per page copying from original to printers...so unperceived errors are undoubtedly contained in those portions that we cannot check against the OM, nevertheless...not completely unrecoverable

By working backward... it is possible to reconstruct in large degree the original text of the Book of Mormon using the standard techniques of critical scholarship.

No matter how good a linguist he is, it is not academically sound to accept one single person's non-peer-reviewed replacement of that much of a book, and still call it Joseph Smith's work. We have Skousen's version of the Book of Mormon, but nothing more. This is no insult to Skousen, he has done.tremendous work, but to do it in total isolation, except for Carmack, for decades, is not a sound research methodology. Even Carmack admitted recently he's only talked to one linguist he knew "from the 90s," and whom he referred to as "independent," about his research. Who works in such isolation? And what is an "independent" linguist?

(And Dan, since you seem to be reading a lot here lately: once again, no, the Interpreter is NOT a peer-reviewed journal.)
Last edited by Guest on Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: Book of Mormon: "never again will it be known as a simpl

Post by _Dr Exiled »

Someone named peppermint patty asked Mr. Carmack if he considered the oral v. written distinction over at MD&D. Let's see if he answers and how.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_Gadianton
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Re: Book of Mormon: "never again will it be known as a simpl

Post by _Gadianton »

Lemmie wrote:Is 'sound' now...


Wasn't Ken's point that we must be radical empiricists who follow the breadcrumbs wherever they lead, no matter how little sense the data makes, and not jump to conclusions about data? Shut up and calculate! We can't explain wave-particle duality, but we can measure it. We can't explain a 15th century Book of Mormon, but we can measure it. Would the person who described Ken's insight as sound ever apply apply that insight to anything but Skousen's theory?

The problem for Skousen is that you can't put the genie back into the bottle. Someone mentioned in the lecture he gave, that he expressed regrets over doing the exact opposite of what Ken just explained, and had speculated when perhaps he shouldn't have. The poster on that board called "Exiled" jumped in and pointed out that he was obviously referring to the "Ghost Committee fiasco" (I about fell out of my chair in laughter when I read that, I don't know why it was so funny). Then, another apologist responded to Exile accusing Mormon Discussions of making up the fiasco. Apparently, it never happened?
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: Book of Mormon: "never again will it be known as a simpl

Post by _Dr Exiled »

Gadianton wrote:
Lemmie wrote:Is 'sound' now...


Wasn't Ken's point that we must be radical empiricists who follow the breadcrumbs wherever they lead, no matter how little sense the data makes, and not jump to conclusions about data? Shut up and calculate! We can't explain wave-particle duality, but we can measure it. We can't explain a 15th century Book of Mormon, but we can measure it. Would the person who described Ken's insight as sound ever apply apply that insight to anything but Skousen's theory?

The problem for Skousen is that you can't put the genie back into the bottle. Someone mentioned in the lecture he gave, that he expressed regrets over doing the exact opposite of what Ken just explained, and had speculated when perhaps he shouldn't have. The poster on that board called "Exiled" jumped in and pointed out that he was obviously referring to the "Ghost Committee fiasco" (I about fell out of my chair in laughter when I read that, I don't know why it was so funny). Then, another apologist responded to Exile accusing Mormon Discussions of making up the fiasco. Apparently, it never happened?


I found where the "fiasco" occurred. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon archeological site bmaf.com and the site that took it over scrubbed where Skousen did all of his speculation about the real ghost writers of the Book of Mormon. I wonder why?

I think the speculation by Skousen happened at a 2014 Book of Mormon archaeological foundation conference. This article mentions the conference 

https://osaywhatistruth.org/2017/11/14/who-translated-the-book-of-mormon-text-into-english-for-joseph-smith-to-read/

I tried to find the youtube video but it is not on the bmaf site or on the bookofmormoncentral site.

The next year Mr. Skousen mentions how he changed his mind at the end of his interpreter conference presentation.

https://interpreterfoundation.org/confe ... ce-videos/


The illustrious Dr. Peterson was the one who chimed in to correct the lesser mortal.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_Gadianton
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Re: Book of Mormon: "never again will it be known as a simpl

Post by _Gadianton »

ouch:

MS wrote:Since Skousen and Carmack have discovered that the Book of Mormon’s language is drawn from a linguistic era lasting at least 270 years (1470-1740 AD), Skousen figures no one man could live that long to finish the project by himself...several people would have had to have worked on the project.

That’s where my hypothesis comes in. The Three Nephites aren’t subject to death, and that gave them the time and the means to stay on the project for hundreds of years without handing it over to anyone else.


I'd say "fiasco" is the right description.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
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