Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Post Reply
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I'd be curious where the political line is drawn with regard to anti-vaxxers.

- Doc


It’s a weird one, Doc. It’s a mashup of lefties who don’t trust big pharma and righties who don’t trust big government. And I suppose libertarians who don’t trust either.

The best example I can think of when it comes to actual anti science on the left is GMO crops.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Part of the problem with the OP is that it conflates several different things into what it means to be anti-science. For my money, simply expressing an opinion that may be contrary to some study somewhere isn’t being “anti-science.” Neither is expressing something based on emotion. To be anti-science requires either active attempts to attack the notion of science as a reliable methodology for gathering information about the natural world (see some religionists and postmodernists) or attacking specific scientific conclusions for religious (evolution) or political (global warming) reasons.

It’s very hard for me to think of an example of the left attacking an area of science the way the right has attacked climate science, up to and including governmental power to abuse and persecute individual scientists. It’s pretty stunning.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _EAllusion »

Res Ipsa wrote:Part of the problem with the opening post is that it conflates several different things into what it means to be anti-science. For my money, simply expressing an opinion that may be contrary to some study somewhere isn’t being “anti-science.” Neither is expressing something based on emotion. To be anti-science requires either active attempts to attack the notion of science as a reliable methodology for gathering information about the natural world (see some religionists and postmodernists) or attacking specific scientific conclusions for religious (evolution) or political (global warming) reasons.

It’s very hard for me to think of an example of the left attacking an area of science the way the right has attacked climate science, up to and including governmental power to abuse and persecute individual scientists. It’s pretty stunning.


There is a strong anti-science component to the anti-vax, anti-gmo, and alternative medicine movements on the left. I'd argue that in some important ways those movements are more dangerous than right-wing pseudoscience. In fact, I did:

viewtopic.php?p=795852

In this thread that followed that one, I discussed the ideological splits in the anti-vax crowd:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=35764&view=previous

As I said there, the big takeway is that it is essentially the reverse situation of creationism. While you think of anti-vaccination as a phenomenon of the left because most of the leading figures and organizations of the movement are left-wing and the arguments derive from ideas more appealing to modes of thinking more common among liberals, the breakdown is more even than you might think. While liberals are disproportionately represented, there are lots of conservatives on board too.

There's a right-wing and a left-wing anti-vax movement. The right-wingers are more the survivalist, conspiratorial type. The intellectual energy of anti-vaccinationism comes from liberals, though.
_Water Dog
_Emeritus
Posts: 1798
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:10 am

Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Water Dog »

I would be curious not just where the political line is drawn, but how it shakes out specifically among the donor class within each side of said political line. Anti-vaxxers definitely lean left. By a large margin, it's not even close. Especially if they are wealthy. And they all shop at Whole Foods, the number one peddler of $10 bananas and other magic potions. Now owned by the same guy that owns the Washington Post. The math is easy. Talk about white privilege. What a pretentious store that is. A visit to Whole Foods is like a visit to The Capitol from the Hunger Games. I do love their selection of kimchi though. But I'm privileged, so there, suck it. If I ever walked in that store wearing a Trump shirt I doubt I'd make it out alive.

Image

Another problem too is that "anti-vaxxers" comprise a wide spectrum. Conservatives generally only sympathize with the movement in that they are averse to compulsive government programs. So a parent doesn't want to vax their child? Who cares. If your child is vaxxed, what are you so afraid of? I vax my kids, but I'm not sold on forcing anyone to vax theirs. I also am not sold on all vaccines. Like chicken pox. I've opted my kids out of that one. I think it's stupid and unnecessary. We have kind of a sissy pill popping culture that is averse to pain. Chicken Pox is a right of passage, in my opinion.

These surveys are always silly because they never take into account the complexity of an issue and the variance of opinion. Like RI points out, the left vs. right will push back on the vaccines for different reasons. But what are those reasons, and what level of push back results from them?

The ones on the left literally believe in this weird Big Pharma conspiracy where twisted docs in lab coats, white men nodoubt, are intentionally harming children for personal profit. They know it's doing damage and just don't care. The ones on the right don't believe anything like that is going on, they just don't like being told what to do, by force, and generally are suspicious of anything managed by the one true bureaucracy, even the US federal govt, in an eye rolley sort of way. The government approach is to administer any vaccine that's available, when in truth only a fraction of them really matter. But when those people push back, even just a little, they get branded as "anti vaxxers" and tossed in the same basket as the others. The people who are fiercely anti-vax, truly opposed, talking about it leading to autism and such claims, always, always, always, on the left.

I submit, one of the most anti-science groups in the country - Liberal Mormon Women. You want to see a group of anti-vaxxers, find yourself a feminist Mormon moms discussion group on Facebook.
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Morley »

Water Dog wrote:The people who are fiercely anti-vax, truly opposed, talking about it leading to autism and such claims, always, always, always, on the left.
(My bold.)


You mean like Donald Trump?

http://fortune.com/2017/02/16/donald-trump-autism-vaccines/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trump-vaccines-autism-links-anti-vaxxer-us-president-false-vaccine-a8331836.html

https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/18/donald-trump-vaccines-senators/


...or, you know, Republicans?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/09/17/the-gops-dangerous-debate-on-vaccines-and-autism/?utm_term=.74d1eb25b2ac




Edit: Removed significant snark. Believe it or not.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _EAllusion »

This study conducted in in 2015 by Pew Research found that 10% of Democrats and 6% of Republicans viewed vaccines such as MMR as unsafe. Democrats support mandated vaccines a little more than Republicans 74/64%, though as recently as 10 years ago support levels were identical.

http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/07/01/c ... al-issues/

So the statement, "Anti-vaxxers definitely lean left. By a large margin, it's not even close." isn't exactly accurate. It's more prevalent on the left, but it's not by a large margin.
_Water Dog
_Emeritus
Posts: 1798
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:10 am

Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Water Dog »

Morley wrote:You mean like Donald Trump?

Fair point. Although I think Trump's position on this has been taken quite out of context. It appears to me more like he was pandering to some on the left while a candidate, particularly the powerful Kennedy family, but then dropped the matter.

The son of former US attorney general Bobby Kennedy met Trump in New York during the presidential transition in January last year and announced that he had been asked to chair a commission to review vaccine safety.

Scientists warned that it would give credence to debunked theories, while a Trump spokeswoman denied any decision had been made.

Then, a year ago this week, Kennedy told reporters he had met “many times” with members of Trump’s transition team, “trading documents about what the commission would look like”. But little has been heard of the plan since then.

“I would say there’s zero progress,” Kennedy told the Guardian last week. “We were told President Trump wanted to meet directly with us. Not only did nothing happen, they’ve cut off all communication with people who care about this issue. The administration has decided to go in another direction.”


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... edy-autism
_DoubtingThomas
_Emeritus
Posts: 4551
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Water Dog wrote: Blah blah, evolution, blah blah. Hmm. True, there are some on the right that deny evolution.


Some? LOL Jesus Christ man!
_Maksutov
_Emeritus
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Maksutov »

America has encouraged a vast marketplace of pseudoscience that has found consumers in almost every group. Political groups often have conspiracy theorists and paranoids who are happy to doubt "authority" and purchase whatever strokes them. :cool:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Left vs. Right on Science & Honesty

Post by _Morley »

Water Dog wrote:
Morley wrote:You mean like Donald Trump?

Fair point. Although I think Trump's position on this has been taken quite out of context. It appears to me more like he was pandering to some on the left while a candidate, particularly the powerful Kennedy family, but then dropped the matter.


Trump famously said it during the Republican Primary Debates. He was pretty clear. Nothing was out of context.

He's been saying it for years.
Post Reply