Executive Order to end Birthright Citizenship

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Executive Order to end Birthright Citizenship

Post by _Res Ipsa »

subgenius wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:No, they were discussed at the time the amendment was drafted. The requirement of being subject to jurisdiction was specifically chosen to exclude the three groups: diplomats, military occupiers, and natives.

Of course this is not true, but let us pretend it is and then season it with the reality that even by the time USA vs Wong was decided, there wasn't such a thing as an illegal immigrant ( early 20th century).
But please, tell us how the authors of the 14th intended to include illegal immigrants when they didn't exist yet....we can wait for you to gather your thoughts...


Of course it's true, Sub. We can all read the history. It's just upthread.

You keep executing the same fail over and over and over. "All persons" is clear and means what it says. Drafting history isn't even relevant if the language is clear. But in this case, even if we look at the history, we see discussions of different types of persons that could be found objectionable. And in every case, the answer is: we mean all persons. If they had wanted to exclude the children of lawbreakers, they could have. But they didn't. If they had wanted to exclude children of people ineligible to become citizens, they could have. But they didn't. If they had wanted to include only people lawfully present in the U.S., they could have said so. But they didn't. They deliberately chose "All persons" because they wanted to guarantee broad birthright citizenship. That they didn't discuss any number of potential different classes of people is irrelevant because the language is clear: "All persons."

If the country wants to change "All persons" to "All persons whose parents are legally in the U.S.," the Constitution provides a way to do that: that's what the amendment process is for.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Executive Order to end Birthright Citizenship

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

I think the wiggle room the Trumpster's legal eagles will use is the "subject to jurisdiction" part of the 14th amendment. If the question had to be addressed post-amendment [of the Constitution] I don't see any reason Trump couldn't issue an executive order based on his interpretation of the phrase. If Democrats want to play the 'seeking asylum' angle for upholding current policy precedent then I think this gets kicked over to the courts, and despite EA's opinion, it makes its way to the Supreme Court, where Trump's guy might be the difference on a ruling.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_EAllusion
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Re: Executive Order to end Birthright Citizenship

Post by _EAllusion »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I think the wiggle room the Trumpster's legal eagles will use is the "subject to jurisdiction" part of the 14th amendment. If the question had to be addressed post-amendment [of the Constitution] I don't see any reason Trump couldn't issue an executive order based on his interpretation of the phrase. If Democrats want to play the 'seeking asylum' angle for upholding current policy precedent then I think this gets kicked over to the courts, and despite EAllusion's opinion, it makes its way to the Supreme Court, where Trump's guy might be the difference on a ruling.

- Doc
I think the conventional wisdom is that not even the Supreme Court is so overtaken with crackpots that something like this would fly. I'm a little more skeptical about underestimating how effective Republicans have recently been at putting unhinged ideologues on the federal courts, but I'd concur that it's really difficult to imagine getting 5 votes for this. I can't fathom Roberts going along with it and everyone other than Thomas would absolutely shock me. Again, the specific argument under question lost 9-0 40 years ago and it's a really obvious issue. The court would have to be scandalously corrupt for it not to side with the previous 9-0 decision. Notice that when people in this thread have tried to cite arguments in favor of the position, they've relied on a mixture of obvious quotemining and other forms of misleading that it takes a few minutes to see the flaws in. That shouldn't fly at the Supreme Court.

Regarding the issue itself, I previously linked a simple primer from a law professor whose expertise is in this area:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/574381/

I also linked the historical records themselves if you want to see where subgenius is just lying. And if you want some key screenshots showing that to save time, you can peek at this brief Twitter thread:

https://Twitter.com/liminalphase/status ... 9111948288

Enjoy the debate over the gypsy menace.
_EAllusion
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Re: Executive Order to end Birthright Citizenship

Post by _EAllusion »

One thing that gets me in the later pages of this thread is the notion that the Wong Kim Ark case was needed to clarify what the 14th amendment meant as the issue wasn't decided up to that point. This is utter nonsense. The 14th amendment was clear on this. The government engaged in an unconstitutional act and the Courts simply found that it was unconstitutional to do so. This does not mean the meaning of the 14th amendment was unclear. It means that the government did something illegal.
_canpakes
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Re: Executive Order to end Birthright Citizenship

Post by _canpakes »

So, why hasn't Trump issued his executive order yet?
_Chap
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Re: Executive Order to end Birthright Citizenship

Post by _Chap »

EAllusion wrote:One thing that gets me in the later pages of this thread is the notion that the Wong Kim Ark case was needed to clarify what the 14th amendment meant as the issue wasn't decided up to that point. This is utter nonsense. The 14th amendment was clear on this. The government engaged in an unconstitutional act and the Courts simply found that it was unconstitutional to do so. This does not mean the meaning of the 14th amendment was unclear. It means that the government did something illegal.



The case started like this:


169 U.S. 649

United States v. Wong Kim Ark (No. 18)

Argued: March 5, 8, 1897

Decided: March 28, 1898



A child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States, by virtue of the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution,

All person born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

This was a writ of habeas corpus issued October 2, 1895, by the District Court of the United States for the Northern District of California to the collector of customs at the port of San Francisco, in behalf of Wong Kim Ark, who alleged that he was a citizen of the United States, of more than twenty-one years of age, and was born at San Francisco in 1873 of parents of Chinese descent and subjects of the Emperor of China, but domiciled residents at San Francisco, and that, on his return to the United States on the steamship Coptic in August, 1895, from a temporary visit to China, he applied to said collector of customs for permission to land, and was by the collector refused such permission, and was restrained of his liberty by the collector, and by the general manager of the steamship company acting under his direction, in violation of the Constitution and laws of the United States, not by virtue of any judicial order or proceeding, but solely upon the pretence that he was not a citizen of the United States.

At the hearing, the District Attorney of the United States was permitted to intervene in behalf of the United States in opposition to the writ, and stated the grounds of his intervention in writing as follows:

That, as he is informed and believes, the said person in [p650] whose behalf said application was made is not entitled to land in the United States, or to be or remain therein, as is alleged in said application, or otherwise.

Because the said Wong Kim Ark, although born in the city and county of San Francisco, State of California, United States of America, is not, under the laws of the State of California and of the United States, a citizen thereof, the mother and father of the said Wong Kim Ark being Chinese persons and subjects of the Emperor of China, and the said Wong Kim Ark being also a Chinese person and a subject of the Emperor of China.

Because the said Wong Kim Ark has been at all times, by reason of his race, language, color and dress, a Chinese person, and now is, and for some time last past has been, a laborer by occupation.

That the said Wong Kim Ark is not entitled to land in the United States, or to be or remain therein, because he does not belong to any of the privileged classes enumerated in any of the acts of Congress, known as the Chinese Exclusion Acts, [*] which would exempt him from the class or classes which are especially excluded from the United States by the provisions of the said acts.

Wherefore the said United States Attorney asks that a judgment and order of this honorable court be made and entered in accordance with the allegations herein contained, and that the said Wong Kim Ark be detained on board of said vessel until released as provided by law, or otherwise to be returned to the country from whence he came, and that such further order be made as to the court may seem proper and legal in the premises.

The case was submitted to the decision of the court upon the following facts agreed by the parties:

That the said Wong Kim Ark was born in the year 1873, at No. 751 Sacramento Street, in the city and county of San Francisco, State of California, United States of America, and [p651] that his mother and father were persons of Chinese descent and subjects of the Emperor of China, and that said Wong Kim Ark was and is a laborer.

That, at the time of his said birth, his mother and father were domiciled residents of the United States, and had established and enjoyed a permanent domicil and residence therein at said city and county of San Francisco, State aforesaid.

That said mother and father of said Wong Kim Ark continued to reside and remain in the United States until the year 1890, when they departed for China.

That during all the time of their said residence in the United States as domiciled residents therein, the said mother and father of said Wong Kim Ark were engaged in the prosecution of business, and were never engaged in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China.

That ever since the birth of said Wong Kim Ark, at the time and place hereinbefore stated and stipulated, he has had but one residence, to-wit, a residence in said State of California, in the United States of America, and that he has never changed or lost said residence or gained or acquired another residence, and there resided claiming to be a citizen of the United States.

That, in the year 1890 the said Wong Kim Ark departed for China upon a temporary visit and with the intention of returning to the United States, and did return thereto on July 26, 1890, on the steamship Gaelic, and was permitted to enter the United States by the collector of customs upon the sole ground that he was a native-born citizen of the United States.

That after his said return, the said Wong Kim Ark remained in the United States, claiming to be a citizen thereof, until the year 1894, when he again departed for China upon a temporary visit, and with the intention of returning to the United States, and did return thereto in the month of August, 1895, and applied to the collector of customs to be permitted to land, and that such application was denied upon the sole ground that said Wong in Ark was not a citizen of the United States. [p652]

That said Wong Kim Ark has not, either by himself or his parents acting for him, ever renounced his allegiance to the United States, and that he has never done or committed any act or thing to exclude him therefrom.

The court ordered Wong Kim Ark to be discharged, upon the ground that he was a citizen of the United States. 1 Fed.Rep. 382. The United States appealed to this court, and the appellee was admitted to bail pending the appeal.


The conclusion of the judgement could not be more clear. Even though Wong Kim Ark's parents were at that time excluded from naturalisation as citizens, he was born in the US of parents under the jurisdiction of the US government, even though they were not themselves citizens.

So his birth gave him citizenship.


The fact, therefore, that acts of Congress or treaties have not permitted Chinese persons born out of this country to become citizens by naturalization, cannot exclude Chinese persons born in this country from the operation of the broad and clear words of the Constitution, "All persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States."

VII. Upon the facts agreed in this case, the American citizenship which Wong Kim Ark acquired by birth within the United States has not been lost or taken away by anything happening since his birth. No doubt he might himself, after coming of age, renounce this citizenship and become a citizen of the country of his parents, or of any other country; for, by our law, as solemnly declared by Congress, "the right of expatriation is a natural and inherent right of all people," and

any declaration, instruction, opinion, order or direction of any officer of the United States which denies, restricts, impairs or questions the right of expatriation, is declared inconsistent with the fundamental principles of the Republic.

Rev.Stat. § 1999, reenacting act of July 7, 1868, c. 249, § 1; 15 Stat. 223, 224. Whether any act of himself or of his parents during his minority could have the same effect is at least doubtful. But it would be out of place to pursue that inquiry, inasmuch as it is expressly agreed that his residence has always been in the United States, and not elsewhere; that each of his temporary visits to China, the one for some months when he was about seventeen years old, and the other for something like a year about the time of his coming of age, was made with the intention of returning, and was followed by his actual return, to the United States, and

that said Wong Kim Ark has not, either by himself or his parents acting [p705] for him, ever renounced his allegiance to the United States, and that he has never done or committed any act or thing to exclude him therefrom.

The evident intention, and the necessary effect, of the submission of this case to the decision of the court upon the facts agreed by the parties were to present for determination the single question stated at the beginning of this opinion, namely, whether a child born in the United States, of parent of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States. For the reasons above stated, this court is of opinion that the question must be answered in the affirmative.
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Executive Order to end Birthright Citizenship

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

canpakes wrote:So, why hasn't Trump issued his executive order yet?


Maybe he's waiting to drop it Monday? You know, timing...

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Executive Order to end Birthright Citizenship

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
canpakes wrote:So, why hasn't Trump issued his executive order yet?


Maybe he's waiting to drop it Monday? You know, timing...

- Doc


It’s coming next week (TM)
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Doctor Steuss
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Re: Executive Order to end Birthright Citizenship

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Res Ipsa wrote:[...] they specifically discussed the Chinese, the Natives [...]

One of the things that surprised me while reading the May 1866 Senate discussions/debates on the Clause of the Amendment was how little was spent talking about freedmen. One Senator seemed more concerned about gypsies than anything else. My unscientific rating of the primacy of groups discussed would be:

1. Natives (45%).
2. Chinese (35%).
3. Gypsies (10%).
4. Freedmen (10%).**
5. Cannibals from Borneo (seriously, cannibals were brought up, lol).

A good portion of when Freedmen were brought up, it was to illustrate how laws had been changed over the previous decade, and not the applicability of the Clause to them.
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_canpakes
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Re: Executive Order to end Birthright Citizenship

Post by _canpakes »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
canpakes wrote:So, why hasn't Trump issued his executive order yet?


Maybe he's waiting to drop it Monday? You know, timing...

- Doc


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