Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

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_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Cinepro. It's not difficult. And yes. I have read Marion's account more times than I can remember because I believe she is a valuable source. Unlike others on this thread who continuously dismissed her. To regard Marion Smith as some fool and tool of Snow just because she took her grandkids claims seriously is just crazy imho.

The chronological timeline suggests that there was a small window between January and Feb 13th 1986 in which the disclosures of the Miles and Bill's involvement was made.

So this..

After many appointments, the children had revealed that Janice sometimes brought two teen-age boys to join in her sex play with them. They told of terrible acts. After about two months of therapy, we had a “hero’s” party for our grandchildren.

As our grandchildren’s therapy continued, the circle of perpetrators widened to include Dick and Brenda Miles.

(Emphasis added)



Is not relevant imho. The therapy of the children continued until they were adults.

Mother 1 has stated that the child disclosed the involvement of the Miles outside of therapy.

Snow has confirmed that the children didn't disclose the Miles involvement to her.

We also have been told the children saw other therapists aside from Snow. So we don't know all the information of appointments conducted in that 6 week window before the kids went off to Hawaii.

But let's assume they were at school during the day.. And then....what..one appointment a week? Two, three, four, every day?

There's probably records of who saw which therapist, when and for how long... even if the sessions were not recorded. There might be notes from Paul Whitehead also. Who is one of the witnesses.

So much we don't know.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

To regard Marion Smith as some fool and tool of Snow just because she took her grandkids claims seriously is just crazy imho.

I must have missed where someone called her names or blamed anything on love for her grandchildren. On the other hand, I have definitely seen people discuss her unprofessional BEHAVIOR, and I totally agree with that. Taking your grandkids seriously is not incompatible with behaving professionally, unless you insert yourself into the process, which she apparently did.

Re: Marion Smith's story, it's difficult to assert that her story details represent a "valuable source", but then, when certain parts don't support the current story, to argue that those certain parts are now "not relevant."
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

I'm not engaging you on this Lemmie. I'm biting my tongue so hard it's bleeding.

However would love to see the section in the Snow article where she refers to the Carstensen case.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

[
Lemmie wrote:
Mary wrote:To regard Marion Smith as some fool and tool of Snow just because she took her grandkids claims seriously is just crazy imho.

I must have missed where someone called her names or blamed anything on love for her grandchildren. On the other hand, I have definitely seen people discuss her unprofessional BEHAVIOR, and I totally agree with that. Taking your grandkids seriously is not incompatible with behaving professionally, unless you insert yourself into the process, which she apparently did.

Re: Marion Smith's story, it's difficult to assert that her story details represent a "valuable source", but then, when certain parts don't support the current story, to argue that those certain parts are now "not relevant."

mary wrote:I'm not engaging you on this Lemmie. I'm biting my tongue so hard it's bleeding.

Because I pointed out that once again your statement of what other people post is a grossly exaggerated, inflammatory stereotype that lends nothing to the conversation?

Or because I disagreed with your opinion?

mary wrote:However would love to see the section in the Snow article where she refers to the Carstensen case.

Are you asking me for that assistance? Surely not. Once your tongue stops bleeding I'm sure you can find someone more to your liking to do your research for you.
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Lemmie. For God's sake. Put me on ignore. Please.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

You have just done to me, (picked a side comment rather than concentrate on the rest of my post) what you accused me of doing to you...But hey I don't really want to engage with a hypocritical, arrogant a**, which is how you have continuously come across to me.
You are wasting my time and I am wasting yours. Give it a rest. Put me on ignore.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

Mary wrote:You have just done to me, (picked a side comment rather than concentrate on the rest of my post) what you accused me of doing to you...But hey I don't really want to engage with a hypocritical, arrogant a**, which is how you have continuously come across to me.
You are wasting my time and I am wasting yours. Give it a rest. Put me on ignore.

I responded to the entirety of your last post, and to a major point of your previous post (your generalization re Smith) so I'm not sure where you get the idea that I "picked a side comment rather than concentrate on the rest of [your] post."

When you continue to make broad statements where you misrepresent what people say, you can't expect that people won't point that out.

When you repeatedly start posts with personal remarks about not engaging a particular person, no matter who you are talking to, or how that person is causing you to bite your tongue until it bleeds, you can't expect that people will not notice.

When you are the one making personal comments about a person instead of commenting on the topic, your advice to "ignore" seems like something you should tell yourself. Or better yet, the person you are getting your negative information from.

Anyway, back to Ihaq's topic. I noticed that Marion Smith seemed to have retired shortly after the incidents being discussed. I was curious about that because it seemed like some of the concerns people had about Snow would have also fallen on the institution Snow worked for.
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Lemmie. Let me spell it out for you.

This was the main thrust of my post

"Is not relevant imho. The therapy of the children continued until they were adults.

Mother 1 has stated that the child disclosed the involvement of the Miles outside of therapy.

Snow has confirmed that the children didn't disclose the Miles involvement to her.

We also have been told the children saw other therapists aside from Snow. So we don't know all the information of appointments conducted in that 6 week window before the kids went off to Hawaii.

But let's assume they were at school during the day.. And then....what..one appointment a week? Two, three, four, every day?

There's probably records of who saw which therapist, when and for how long... even if the sessions were not recorded. There might be notes from Paul Whitehead also. Who is one of the witnesses.

So much we don't know."
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

I was curious about Marion Smith's involvement; there isn't much I could find, but here is a letter from her, published in the December 1991 Sunstone magazine. It gives some interesting insights into her mindset at the time:
I AM WRITING to share my small weight
of evidence regarding the furor over
rituahzed child sexual abuse within the LDS
community ("Leaked Bishop’s Memo
Spotlights LDS Ritual Satanic Sexual Abuse,"
SUNSTONE 15:5).

I have worked with many children
who have been sexually abused as
well as adults who were molested as chil-
dren Of the adults I have worked with, four
reported Satanic abuse involving LDS church
members that was very similar to that
reported by Bishop Glenn Pace of the LDS
Presiding Bishopnc.

Six of my clients in cases
of Incest were daughters of former bishops
As Dr Don Price commented in the Salt Lake
Tribune on 26 October 1991, it is only to be
expected that Satanic abuse will imitate
rituals of predominant religions.

What I have noticed, however, is the in-
crease in children reporting rltualized sexual
abuse involving groups of children and
adults These reports may or may not relate
to Satanic rituals and the more bizarre activi-
ties associated with Satanic worship, but they
generally seem to occur within LDS church-
linked neighborhood groups.

A little over five years ago, at about the
same time the Hadfield case emerged in Lehi,
I, along with five or six other therapists,
interviewed approximately twenty children
from a Bountiful ward. In this same ward,
other children had made allegations about
Bret Bullock and other adults in what ap-
peared to be a group sex ring Bullock was
subsequently convicted. Others were not
charged. In this same neighborhood, totally
different adults were named by totally differ-
ent children.

This, of course, sounds hke an
hysterical witch-hunt.
However, the children who reported the
second, non-Bullock sex ring did not know
what the children in the Bullock case had
said and were too young to come up with the
consistent, spontaneous, explicit detml and
congruent emotional affect that they
manifested. These two Bountiful sex nngs
were never linked by any children as far as I
know Both groups involved ritualized sex
acts but to my knowledge, not Satanic rites.
The bishop arranged investigative evalua-
tions for all the children in the Bullock case
None of these children reported being
abused. However, they were seen only once
by the therapists, and given the nature of the
reported abuse (pornographic filming, ani-
mal killing, group sexual acts of all kinds,
etc, and the threats for "telling" reported by
the children who had "talked"), it would be
surprising if a therapist could elicit informa-
tion in one interview.

One aspect of the second alleged sex ring
was that a daughter and son-in-law of a gen-
eral authority were named as the main abus-
ers by at least seven children. Explicit detail
was given about this couple’s activities by all
of these children. When the couple’s names
surfaced, the Bountiful police, for all practi-
cal purposes, dropped the case.

Witnessing how the children in the then-
contemporaneous Hadfleld and Bullock
cases suffered, all the parents of the children
who made allegations refused to allow their
children to testify in court. At the time, the
stake president and others in the Church
system said they believed the children, but
no Church action was ever taken against any
of the alleged perpetrators.

The Church is in a legal bind in cases of
this sort, no doubt feanng lawsuits by those
who are disciplined or by future victims if
further abuse occurs by previously alleged
perpetrators now holding Church office. The
Church IS also in a difficult position when it
comes to adults now seeking Church action
against a perpetrator for abuse that may have
occurred years ago when they were children.

Nevertheless, Utah has one of the highest
child sexual abuse rates in the nation, and
much of the sex ring activity being reported
allegedly has taken place withln LDS congre-
gations and is perpetrated by active LDS
members. The Church must warn its
members of the vulnerability of youth even
to the Church’s own youth leaders and to
family members. Withln the Salt Lake Valley
alone, sex abuse rings have been reported in
Midvale, West Valley, Salt Lake, and Bounti-
ful.

In talking with colleagues, I have heard
several factors mentioned that may place
children at risk in the LDS culture. Utah’s
high birthrate in Utah and low per-capita
income place extra pressure on family sys-
tems LDS neighborhoods generally encour-
age a lot of adult/child ~interaction outside the
family. While this may create a supportive
environment, It also puts children more at
risk for abuse The patriarchal system where
the priesthood holder’s authority is not
questioned allows pedophiles a umque op-
portunity Bishops often support the perpe-
trator because he is a priesthood holder
Unfortunately, children cannot trust every-
one, ~including Church leaders. The Church
needs to change its implied message that its
leaders are morally infallible.

There is the LDS attitude that marriage
should be preserved at any cost LDS denial
of anything being wrong within family or
Church systems is exceedingly strong. I be-
lieve that a Church cover-up occurred in the
case of the general authority’s children, al-
though I have little admissible evidence to
support my oplmon If there has been a
cover-up, obviously It is intolerable to
Mormons and non-Mormons alike.

Sexual abuse will decrease when the pub-
lic becomes informed and acts to protect its
children. I plead with LDS leaders to help
make this information accessible.

MARION B. SMITH
Former Director
Intermountain Sexual Abuse Centers
Salt Lake City
https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-con ... es/086.pdf
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

I did notice an inconsistency between Smith's letter to Sunstone and her writing "A blip here.."

From the Sunsone letter:

I, along with five or six other therapists, interviewed approximately twenty children from a Bountiful ward. In this same ward, other children had made allegations about Bret Bullock and other adults in what appeared to be a group sex ring. Bullock was subsequently convicted....

However, the children who reported the second, non-Bullock sex ring did not know what the children in the Bullock case had said and were too young to come up with the consistent, spontaneous, explicit detail and congruent emotional affect that they manifested. These two Bountiful sex rings were never linked by any children as far as I know....

One aspect of the second alleged sex ring was that a daughter and son-in-law of a general authority were named as the main abusers by at least seven children.

However, she writes in the other paper that she herself provided the link by telling her daughter about the accusations re the babysitter, BEFORE the second group of kids had any interviews with therapists, and before they made any accusations, sex ring or otherwise:

A few months later in January of 1986, Janice, a baby tender used by both our daughters, was implicated by a child victim in the Bullock case. Our daughter Eileen and her husband Bill Carstensea were told by me about the allegations regarding Janice. Bill insisted his children be interviewed and made an appointment at ISAT with Dr. Barbara Snow.

This would seem to indicate that Marion Snow, probably unknowingly, may have contributed much more to the spread of the false accusations than was realized.
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