Trump Disrespects Military... again

[_honorentheos]

I knew a couple of people in the military who might have been on a spectrum leaning towards sociopathy. The one person I've known who was certainly one would never have joined for personality reasons but did become a fire fighter. We worked together when I was in college and he was doing his emt training and doing reserve fire fighter ride alongs. His description and delight in his first very serious auto accident response was viscerally sickening to me. He was having multiple affairs when I knew him with zero regard for any of the women involved, his wife or otherwise. It was an experience knowing him.

Whether or not the military or any group attracts psychopaths is a meh topic in my opinion as intention to join and success within aren't the same thing. Maybe there is literature that says otherwise but In my limited experience, the military is a highly social environment that doesn't favor the kinds of aggressive individualism that goes along with psychopathy. I think the responses we see here from those who served attest to that. An attack on a brother isn't taken lightly and gets a response. It's hard to imagine someone who isn't capable of forming genuine emotional ties being highly successful in the environments with which I am familiar and it seems others here are expressing the same. I mean, one of the reasons I felt EA would make a good moderator here is because he exhibits the detached traits of someone who isn't concerned with what anyone thinks of him. I'm not surprised that such an individual with a libertarian bend isn't one to understand that about military life and instead focuses on the James Bond esque supposed licence to kill that liberal and libertarian types think comes with and attracts people to military service.

[_EAllusion]

I probably should've typed /s in my post above. Here someone argues that principals are psychopaths:

https://www.theeducatoronline.com/au/ne ... ath/239954

The point is the argument that a certain profession draws more than its fair share of psychopaths is objectively r____. How in the ____ would you quantify that? Is there some sort of psychopath questionnaire they voluntarily fill out and submit to EAllusion's charitable organization for tracking? What's more likely? The military, which EAllusion knows virtually nothing about, is some sort of magnet and retention pond for psychopaths, or EAllusion simply made an assertion and has set about defending it because he can never, ever, under any circumstance, be less smart than anyone else and admit to being wrong?

Kind of like a...?

- Doc

Yes. I linked two references to it, one of which discusses if I recall the higher incidence of psychopathy in security professions like police and military. There are also brain imaging correlates of psychopathy, but I'm not aware of any study that surveys professions using that methodology.

People with psychopathy tend to have low anxiety in high stress situations. People with psychopathy tend to have low empathy. People with psychopathy tend to be aggressive. People with psychopathy are more prone to sadism. People with psychopathy tend to be adept at social manipulation. Etc. Why wouldn't traits like this produce differential attraction to professions that best utilize these traits? Why is that idea "objectively retarded?"

Not a great link, but psychopaths tend to be good "ladder climbers" and are disproportionately represented in the tops of professional hierarchies. They climb ranks well because they are skilled at manipulating decision makers, manage stress well, are aggressive, are willing to do what it takes even if it hurts people, and superficially appear to be good leaders. Psychopathy in corporate management is well studied. Psychopaths are at a disproportionate advantage to become upper tier executives. If you liken that to a principal to that in the education world, which seems analogous at first blush, then you'd expect a similar result. It wouldn't be surprising if principals have a higher incidence of psychopathy than the general population. That doesn't mean most principals would be psychopaths. Psychopathy isn't unheard of, but it is rare enough that even if you quadruple the general population prevalence, it still would be a small fraction of the overall group.

[_Kevin Graham]

"A former U.S. Marine in Iraq, testifying Wednesday at a hearing for an American military deserter seeking asylum in Canada, said several men in his unit were “psychopaths” who enjoyed killing unarmed Iraqi civilians who posed no threat." - Ex-Marine: Some Comrades were Psychopaths

Not all psychopaths are criminals – some psychopathic traits are actually linked to success

More recently, some researchers, ourselves included, have speculated that people with pronounced psychopathic traits may be found disproportionately in certain professional niches, such as politics, business, law enforcement, firefighting, special operations military services and high-risk sports. Most of those with psychopathic traits probably aren’t classic “psychopaths,” but nonetheless exhibit many features of the condition. - http://cdp.sagepub.com/content/24/4/298.short

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Ok, I see KG and EA have doubled down on their assertions despite being unable to quantify nor correlate their observations outside bald supposition. Again, how in the world, outside of meta mind-reading and assigning these traits to a sector you find safe to characterize as hospitable to psychopathic personality traits, can they definitively come to their conclusion?

I get we're on on a Buzzfeed-y topic that requires nothing more than linking to a silly article to bolster their claim, but how in the world are KG and EA so confident? You have now, what, four folks who've served in the military explain their personal experiences in service and with vets?

I served in the Combat Applications Group, USASOC where you'd think the traits that are being discussed would be perfectly acceptable. But the reality is very, very different from the perception. You were far more likely to find a cabal of philosopher-warriors there than a nest of Patrick Batemans. In fact, due to the extensive vetting, psychological screening, training, and everything else that demands an ability to team build, think assymetrically, and additionally meet incredible physical standards a psychopath is probably the least likely person to conform to that culture.

You can extend much of those same barriers to the military writ large and I'd assert it's an environment that's incredibly inhospitable if not hostile toward the psychopath. There are screening mechanisms in place even before a Soldier, Sailor, or Marine even makes it to Basic Training or Boot Camp. The psychopath would find a much better environment in which to operate where they're not subject to constant observation, evaluation, and screening.

You know what 'job' is conspicuously absent from those nonsense lists? You know what the perfect 'hiding in plain view' lifestyle would best suit the psychopath? I'd assert there are far more psychopaths who're stay-at-home-moms than all those Top Ten lists combined. It's the perfect storm of power over others, false facading to bolster social ties, control, and social cover. If y'all want to find droves of psychopaths you need not look any further than suburbia, especially the ones that are subject to HOAs. That, right there, is where you'll find them hiding in plain sight.

- Doc

[_Kevin Graham]

Oh I haven't asserted anything, I'm just throwing out links that I thought were interesting and relevant from google.

I do have some reservations of my own about EA's assertion.

I get that a psychopath might find himself comfortable in a military environment if he is in a position of authority, but that doesn't necessarily mean he or she would seek out that kind of environment.

Also, when you join the military you're not in authority. Quite the contrary, you're subjected to a lot of berating which isn't something a psychopath would be attracted to.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

OI get that a psychopath might find himself comfortable in a military environment if he is in a position of authority...

You wanna know the dirty little secret about authority in the military? No one really has it. Commanders and senior enlisted types are paper tigers. They're all beholden to so many layers of oversight, policy, and requirements they can't do what they want to do. I'd imgane it's an incredibly frustrating experience for a psychopath looking to exert control or to exercise power. There is none; it's plug n' play.

The occasional psychopath that manages to slip through the cracks finds out pretty quick the military isn't what they thought it was. If they possess murderous tendencies rather than a desire to control others they'd be better off being a truck driver who can kill with much more impunity than going through the hundred steps the military imposes before putting you into a combat environment.

- Doc

[_Dr Exiled]

OI get that a psychopath might find himself comfortable in a military environment if he is in a position of authority...

You wanna know the dirty little secret about authority in the military? No one really has it. Commanders and senior enlisted types are paper tigers. They're all beholden to so many layers of oversight, policy, and requirements they can't do what they want to do. I'd imgane it's an incredibly frustrating experience for a psychopath looking to exert control or to exercise power. There is none; it's plug n' play.

The occasional psychopath that manages to slip through the cracks finds out pretty quick the military isn't what they thought it was. If they possess murderous tendencies rather than a desire to control others they'd be better off being a truck driver who can kill with much more impunity than going through the hundred steps the military imposes before putting you into a combat environment.

- Doc

A retired Navy Seal commander that I know cited the same as you did in explaining that there is a lot of passive aggressiveness in the military as overt exercise of power was hard to do. Did you find the same thing?

[_EAllusion]

Ok, I see Kevin Graham and EAllusion have doubled down on their assertions despite being unable to quantify nor correlate their observations outside bald supposition.

I linked the measures I was referring to?

You were far more likely to find a cabal of philosopher-warriors there than a nest of Patrick Batemans.

I think you are likely affirming the consequent here. If psychopathy exists in the low single digits in the population and that is, say, about 2 times more likely to be found in a military context, the sentiment behind this statement would be true and not a problem for what's asserted.

In fact, due to the extensive vetting, psychological screening, training, and everything else that demands an ability to team build, think assymetrically, and additionally meet incredible physical standards a psychopath is probably the least likely person to conform to that culture.

Psychopaths are good at working within a team. Again, psychopaths are more likely than the average person to be perceived as effective within social hierarchies. They just view them as instrumental to their ends. Or, put another way, "team building" is not a barrier for a psychopath. Being authentically nurturing, for example, is, but navigating the mores of a social hierarchy is not a problem. Jobs that have perceived authority, opportunity for aggression, reward those who can be composed during stress, do not demand empathy, present opportunities for manipulation, etc. are good for a psychopath. If you're saying the military doesn't have that, fine, but listing things that are either beneficial or neutral to psychopathic traits does not help your case; it hurts it.

Why do you assert this?

[_EAllusion]

OI get that a psychopath might find himself comfortable in a military environment if he is in a position of authority...

You wanna know the dirty little secret about authority in the military? No one really has it. Commanders and senior enlisted types are paper tigers. They're all beholden to so many layers of oversight, policy, and requirements they can't do what they want to do. I'd imgane it's an incredibly frustrating experience for a psychopath looking to exert control or to exercise power. There is none; it's plug n' play.

The occasional psychopath that manages to slip through the cracks finds out pretty quick the military isn't what they thought it was. If they possess murderous tendencies rather than a desire to control others they'd be better off being a truck driver who can kill with much more impunity than going through the hundred steps the military imposes before putting you into a combat environment.

- Doc

Mass killers are severely over-represented by ex-military, if I recall. I suspect that has more to do with being trained in killing and mental health issues military environments create than psychopathy per se. That said, psychopathy does not necessarily equate to murderer.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

A retired Navy Seal commander that I know cited the same as you did in explaining that there is a lot of passive aggressiveness in the military as overt exercise of power was hard to do. Did you find the same thing?

It varies from unit to unit and command to command, but I would say overall for leaders it's more about developing collaborative relationships. One particular commander, she was incoming as I was leaving, basically was what EA and KG were alluding to and she had an insurrection on her hands. It's the only time I witnessed anything like her and anything like everyone working together to get rid of her. She was relieved of command. If I had to admit I ran across a psychopath, EA's and KG's clinical definition as it were, I'd guess she fit the bill, but I'd feel more comfortable with describing her as a narcissist.

On the enlisted side, you just had straight up assholes at worst and people who just understood they had to get things done at best. The idea of securing power and wielding it as some sort of psychological salve is incredibly bizarre. You'll get the occasional story of the psychopath who makes it onto a special operations team, or an infantry unit, where they finally reveal themselves as killers or sadists. I just read one about a Navy SEAL, 19 years in, well-regarded up until his 8th or 9th deployment where he was outed as a murderous thug and where people unfortunately covered for him. Lots of people are now facing Navy masts (I think that's what they call judicial punishment in the Navy) with that one.

That said, using those two examples as justification for assigning the military the status as a psychopath-magnet is akin to believing the teaching profession attracts women who like to “F” boys. It's a bit unfair, even if there are some examples that back the assertion.

- Doc