Trump Disrespects Military... again

[_Morley]

Well put, Cam.

[_honorentheos]

Um, who brought up serial/mass murderers?

EA.

viewtopic.php?p=1157516#p1157516

And who is the only person to mention "baby killing"?

I have been using it to convey that the hippie liberal trope about military persons and the idea EA first expressed in this thread that is not supported and conflicts completely with my own experience in the military come from a similar place and should be taken equally seriously.

You'll notice I have been using it in mumble-mumble type quotes, too. For the socially impaired, that should serve as a cue of sort that it wasn't a literal quote but I guess that's the game now.

Recap

"Conservatives love the military so it's odd Trump gets away with disrespecting them as he does."

"Yeah, that is odd."

"Like, you can't tell a crowd of conservatives the objective fact they elevate psychopaths to hero status without them turning on you even though it's as obviously true as the sky is blue."

"Ummmm…"

"What, just think about it. Psychopaths want to kill but society won't let them, but put a uniform on them and send them to another country and they get to kill to their hearts delight...and get a medal for it, too! You should intuitively understand that so I shouldn't have to support that wildass claim."

"Well, the thing is I served in the military and not only does that not "intuitively" align with my experince with militiary culture and having personal experience with what leads to success in that environment, but it's also something the military specifically filters out for the same reason it seems intuitive to you psychopaths would be attracted to join. So, maybe you have some stats or a study or something? Because otherwise, I think you made that crap up."

"Your reaction to this is something I want to focus on because I don't want to actually engage my own claim, so why do you think you react negatively to my stating this obvious fact that makes intuitive sense if you know the military like I do because, duh, I've seen Full Metal Jacket so...?"

"Ok, you pulled the claim out of your ass. Got it."

"No, there are definitely studies. People who have psychopathic traits are good ladder climbers, the military is as structured a ladder as there is, so of course these studies that show the prevelance of sociopathic tendancies and how the traits of those who exhibit them can climb ladders and do well in high stress environments supports what I said so, yeah, celebrating the armed forces is a celebration of psychopathy that shows how hypocritical conservatism is in the US. CEOs, Generals, that guy from Platoon, Rambo...clearly your reaction to this comment is noteworthy for it's kneejerk reactionary nature due to your being too close to the subject by being someone who served while I know what I'm talking about because it checks out intuitively and the college radio station in Madison would take my comment in stride without equivocation."

"You seem to want to paint the military into a box where it's basically Lord of the Flies meets Wolf of Wallstreet where success comes from having nerves of steel, a lack of conscious or concern for how one's decisions affect others, and an interest in taking human lives. I don't think you know what you're talking about. You're painting with a broad brush drawing conclusions and parallels from your intuition and tangential cultures outside the military where metaphorical backstabbing leads to success rather than something defensible like, well, studies about the prevalence of psychopaths in the military where you apparently imagine being good at murder is a resume builder."

"You want a study? I've seen studies that show people with military backgrounds are severely over-represented among 'mass killers'. Now, I'm not saying that means they were psychopaths, but maybe being trained and going through untreated trauma llike in war, which I know kinda undermines the idea they are cold hearted psychopaths but moving on..."


"Here's a study that says a) most serial killers who have military backgrounds performed poorly and were subject to discipline and, b) aren't exactly an overwhelming percentage of serial killers. I think you're stretching."


(Closing Google Search Tab) "Off the top of my head I recall it being something like 1.5X the ratio of mass killers who have military backgrounds to those who don't compared to general population members who have military backgrounds and those who don't. So, yeah I was right."

"You mean, you are right when you say 1.5X or when you said severely over-represented because..."

"Look, the point is, Trump disrespects the military contra to conservative norms and gets away with it and you all are acting a lot like conservatives despite claiming to be liberal in your political socio-economic views and that should be interesting more so than facts about the actual prevelence of psychopaths in the military. So, let's get back to that..."

"I'm pretty sure you are too used to making these kind of claims among sympathetic uber-liberals and isolationist libertarians and didn't expect to be challenged by people who have more than an intuited sense of what the military actually is like and those who make careers there."

"You are missing my point which I've made very successfully."

"Ok. You think people in the military are power-hungry baby-killers. Got it."

"That's not what I said..."

"Sure."

[_honorentheos]

Well, enlisted military members are better educated, get higher test scores, and come from higher socioeconomic backgrounds than their similarly aged peers in society. Officers typically far surpass their peers regarding intelligence, mental health, and physical fitness.

According to a random google hit that produced a Pentagon report, "... 71 percent of Americans aged 17 to 24 would fail to qualify for military service."

Members of America's volunteer Army are not enlisting because they have no other economic opportunities. America's soldiers are less likely than civilians to be high school dropouts. Contrary to conventional wisdom, minorities are not overrepresented in military service.

So, where does that leave us with the original assertion that psychopaths are overrepresented in the military? I believe archetypal psychopaths, those who're drawn to infantry and commando type units, typically wash out of the selection processes. Military units require a strong sense of social cohesiveness, and this is only heightened as a requirement in special operations. In other words, I don't think psychopathy works well, generally speaking, in a military setting. Do men and women who're probably diagnosable with antisocial personality disorder (APSD) sneak through and find themselves in charge of others? Sure. And I would suggest when they finally do act out or act on a compulsion they're usually relieved of their duties and put out of service. This happens fairly effectively, in my opinion, as contrasted with the real world where psychopaths and APSD types can camouflage themselves much more effectviely since there are no mechanisms to spot them and deal with their behavior other than self-destructive behaviors and the law.

- Doc

Exactly. And well put.

[_Kevin Graham]

So if EAllusion is right about what the study says, then it supports his initial contention that psychopaths are drawn to the military, does it not?

No, Kevin. The study is not about psychopaths.

Yes of course, and I misspoke. I meant to say his claim about mass killers being over represented in military.

[_Kevin Graham]

Um, who brought up serial/mass murderers?

EAllusion.

Not really, DrW first mentioned "psychopathic killers." Once that association began, EA then responded to Morley with:

"My sense here is that you think 'psychopath' means something like 'serial killer' when it really means something like, 'person who lacks empathy, is prone to aggression and manipulation, lacks concern for social norms, and has shallow affect.'"

Doctor CamNC4Me then, began to define psychopathy as those who "possess murderous tendencies." To which EA again reaffirmed his initial statement that: "psychopathy does not necessarily equate to murderer."

Doc presented a study which presumably he thinks negates EA's argument, but then EA says he has misunderstood the study if he thinks it in some way negates anything EA has said.

honorentheos then muddles two separate sources separated by at least 13 years, and assumes a correlation ratio close enough to 1:1 to suggests it is proof that EA has been operating from confirmation bias. He also refers to "baby killing" multiple times for no apparent reason other than to beat a straw man.

EA and DOC get into a bit more about who properly understood the first study, and after EA's last response Morley said:

"That's what I got from the article, too. However, Mass murderer does not equal psychopath in any of the literature. It's ridiculous that we've even gone there."

Well, no kidding. And that is why I asked the question. Who started equating psychopaths with murderers? It wasn't EA.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Well, no kidding. And that is why I asked the question. Who started equating psychopaths with murderers? It wasn't EA.

The above is a great example of arguing in bad faith. KG blithely dismisses EA ridiculous statement that:

the US military attracts psychopaths who get off on authority and hurting people

Anyone who isn't a complete damned retard understood what he meant; it certainly wasn't because, in context of the subject at hand, military psychopaths enjoy a mean-spirited pun. Dr. W correctly inferred EA's point and addressed it. EA, having a chance to correct Dr. W didn't, which leaves the reader to correctly understand EA meant what Dr. W and others have discussed.

You're being a dickhole.

- Doc

[_Kevin Graham]

Well, enlisted military members are better educated, get higher test scores, and come from higher socioeconomic backgrounds than their similarly aged peers in society.

I'm not sure this is true.

Officers typically far surpass their peers regarding intelligence, mental health, and physical fitness.

That may be true for officers.

According to a random google hit that produced a Pentagon report, "... 71 percent of Americans aged 17 to 24 would fail to qualify for military service."

Is this based on a rate of rejections? If so, then it needs to be considered that entry into the Air Force is much more difficult than entry into the Army. After my mission I was about to join the Navy to become a "Nuke" after passing all their tests, but then they told me I couldn't because of my medical history which included one record of me sleep walking. You can't join the military if you have ever slept walked. You can't join the military if your feet are flat. There is a great number of things that can keep a great number of people out of the military that have nothing to do with intelligence. One thing that doesn't keep you out is being a psychopath.

Members of America's volunteer Army are not enlisting because they have no other economic opportunities.

Sure, many of them could work at McDonalds. That's an economic opportunity I suppose. But McDonalds doesn't get government funding to recruit their employees with all sorts of perk packages like the military does.

America's soldiers are less likely than civilians to be high school dropouts.

Well yeah. That's because a diploma or GED equivalent is required.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, minorities are not overrepresented in military service.

No, this doesn't seem right at all.

26.7% of the country is minority.

Among enlisted recruits, 43 percent of men and 56 percent of women are Hispanic or a racial minority. Female recruits are consistently more diverse than the civilian population; they are also more diverse than male recruits.

So it seems the military is overrepresented with minorities by nearly 2:1. In the Army there are nearly as many black women as white women.

So, where does that leave us with the original assertion that psychopaths are overrepresented in the military?

Neither here nor there it seems. Unless you think white people are more likely to be psychopaths.

I believe archetypal psychopaths, those who're drawn to infantry and commando type units, typically wash out of the selection processes. Military units require a strong sense of social cohesiveness, and this is only heightened as a requirement in special operations. In other words, I don't think psychopathy works well, generally speaking, in a military setting.

That's the sense I have of it, too.

[_Kevin Graham]

The above is a great example of arguing in bad faith. Kevin Graham blithely dismisses EAllusion ridiculous statement that:

My post was in reference to the question about why I asked the question. I'm not dismissing EA's statement but it is irrelevant to my question about who started equating psychopathy with murderous behavior.

You're being a dickhole.

- Doc

[_Morley]

26.7% of the country is minority.

That's only counting so-called racial minorities. Hispanics wouldn't be included in those numbers.

[_Morley]

Yes of course, and I misspoke. I meant to say his claim about mass killers being over represented in military.

It doesn't show that mass killers are over-represented in the military. For the most part, the killings in the study were post service. I'm sure you can think of some reasons that difference might be meaningful.