Cohen spills beans on Trump/Russia: Trump cancels on Putin

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_Maksutov
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Re: Cohen spills beans on Trump/Russia: Trump cancels on Put

Post by _Maksutov »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:It's bizarre. Guys like subgenius keep trying to use the distraction of whataboutism, but that tactic doesn't make any sense. If Clinton were President now I'd be demonstrating the same amount of skepticism toward her if she were as venal as Trump is.

Trump is the President. Not her. Not her husband. Not Sanders. Trump is. He's doing incredibly bad things that have been corroborated. I don't get why supposed patriots are cool with it. It's bananas.

- Doc


Think of it as a conditioned reflex. :wink:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Gunnar
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Re: Cohen spills beans on Trump/Russia: Trump cancels on Put

Post by _Gunnar »

What is particularly stupid is Ajax's admission (in effect) that he would continue to support Trump even if he knew for a fact that all the accusations against were undeniably true, thus showing he is not only irrational but morally bankrupt. This is every bit as stupid as the flat earthers who assert that no amount of evidence, however incontrovertible, will ever convince them that the world is a globe.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Dr Exiled
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Re: Cohen spills beans on Trump/Russia: Trump cancels on Put

Post by _Dr Exiled »

I think we ought to be weary of any foreign power trying to influence us. This is troubling: https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-film-the-israel-lobby-does-not-want-you-to-see/
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_EAllusion
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Re: Cohen spills beans on Trump/Russia: Trump cancels on Put

Post by _EAllusion »

Subs schtick here is pretty obvious. He presents a false equivalence and accuses you of hypocrisy. At that point, you have two options. First, you can try to point out how his example is unlike what you are talking about either because it's not true or not analogous in a relevant way. If you go that route, his response is, "Oh. So it's different when YOU do it." He then declares victory and walks away. Second, you can try to point out that even if you were a hypocrite, which you may not be, that doesn't affect the truth of what you are saying or the validity of your criticism. That's tu quoque fallacy. If you go that route, his response is, "Oh. So it's different when YOU do it." He then declares victory and walks away.

It's easy to write this off as a brilliant Soviet propaganda technique, but it's also just what narcissistic jerks do too. It's not smart. It's pathetic and annoying.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Cohen spills beans on Trump/Russia: Trump cancels on Put

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

I think something neurological is happening with Trump supporters' brains. I'm not kidding. Trump loyalists are the Washington Generals of critical thinking. Why is adherence to him so important? Why do they relish in the behavior of petulance and infantilism? Why are they intellectually dishonest and why do they engage a topic in bad faith, even when the subject itself is objectively non-partisan like this one? Aside from the obvious observable reputation and behavior of a lifelong scumbag and pathological liar in Donald Trump, why is Conservative authoritarianism so important to socially and economically immobile Americans?

We already know why Trump is important to wealthy Conservatives. He's good for their bottom line. But, Trumpism has transcended traditional Conservatism. We are witnessing something deeply radical and authoritarian manifest that is very different from what your fiscally Conservative grandfather would say being a Conservative is. I made mention of it in the other thread that loyalty to Trump, in the here and now, even if he's constantly changing his mind, is the most important thing to Trump. Conservatism has, I think, shifted from loyalty to the country to loyalty to the Party (and Trump).

It's pretty apparent to me that it pretty much boils down to (in their minds) pushing back against the illusory Socialist-Liberal agenda because traditional Western values are under attack. Losing the 'culture war' is pushing them to embrace people like Trump, Putin and others who makes no apologies for ethnic and national identity.

A symptom of this fear of losing is a susceptibility to disinformation and propaganda, in which Conservatives will immediately come to defense of money-grubbing, fear-mongering oligarchs from the GOP, the right-wing media, and their corporate 'investors', who have worked in tandem to systematically undermine the overall well-being of humanity for personal profit. The GOP is essentially a conduit for fostering a sort of political ‘Stockholm Syndrome’ among their constituents. Trump has become the cult of personality. What in the world are these emotionally bankrupt fools that adhere to authoritarian virtue doing? I'm stunned to see supposed patriots turn a blind eye to Trump and using his office as a money laundering mechanism. It's as if the content of one's character doesn't matter anymore as long as Republicans are 'winning.' Winning feels good, so winning is the moral high ground. A place where the reputation of a man's character is worthless and self-reflection is impossible. Authoritarianism is very much alive in modern America and there is no shortage of people to clue into that and use it for personal gain with the overt support of the Republican underclass.

I mean, anyone that supports Trump at this juncture is a certifiable authoritarian. We now have a President who literally refuses to read long-form text and hasn’t finished a novel in five decades. A man so untethered from reality that he feels he has earned his right to be a criminal. Not only will he do the crime, but he will brag about it publicly while simultaneously denying it and then turn around and gaslight whoever points out the behavior. His supporters relish and delight in it.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_EAllusion
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Re: Cohen spills beans on Trump/Russia: Trump cancels on Put

Post by _EAllusion »

I think it's a mistake to reduce hardcore Trump supporters into a base with a unified set of motivations and beliefs. Ajax is a real-deal fascist who likes Trump because Trump's authoritarian impulses and stoking of racism and xenophobia is very friendly to fascist beliefs. To quote the Big Lebowski, say what you will about National Socialism, at least its an ethos. Ajax is actually the most consistent kind of Trump loyalist as at least Trump lines up with what he thinks. He argues in bad faith because that's what white supremacists do. It's their MO. It always has been. What he doesn't get, besides the whole white supremacist thinking thing being wrong, is that he's being conned. He thinks he's in on the con and delights in disingenuous argument, but he's the mark. He's inviting corruption that hurts him.

But not every hardcore Trump fan is Ajax. A lot of it is just blind partisan loyalty, negative partisanship like you mention Doc, and genuinely being misinformed or confused about what's going on because people trust and pay attention to the wrong media sources. These problems are all much more serious on the Republican side right now and have been for some time if we are being honest, but I don't think Democrats are immune to them. The real nightmare scenario we are barreling towards is that the same infection hits the other major political party too.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Cohen spills beans on Trump/Russia: Trump cancels on Put

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Just wanted to quickly update that Trump is now overtly engaging in obstruction of justice and witness tampering:

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump
“Michael Cohen asks judge for no Prison Time.” You mean he can do all of the TERRIBLE, unrelated to Trump, things having to do with fraud, big loans, Taxis, etc., and not serve a long prison term? He makes up stories to get a GREAT & ALREADY reduced deal for himself, and get.....

68.8K
8:24 AM - Dec 3, 2018
Twitter Ads information and privacy
42.9K people are talking about this
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Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump
....his wife and father-in-law (who has the money?) off Scott Free. He lied for this outcome and should, in my opinion, serve a full and complete sentence.

61.6K
8:29 AM - Dec 3, 2018


And he almost immediately turns around and tweets this:

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump
“I will never testify against Trump.” This statement was recently made by Roger Stone, essentially stating that he will not be forced by a rogue and out of control prosecutor to make up lies and stories about “President Trump.” Nice to know that some people still have “guts!”

91.3K
8:48 AM - Dec 3, 2018


It’s a federal crime for an individual to intimidate, threaten or “corruptly persuade” another person with the goal of influencing or preventing his or her testimony.

Now. When I say on page four that Trump supporters are probably undergoing some sort of brain rewiring when it comes to their position, their President, and their ability to comprehend truth or even justice you literally have, right there, witness tampering and an attempt to obstruct justice.

That's how damned stupid and detached from reality Trump is.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_MeDotOrg
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Re: Cohen spills beans on Trump/Russia: Trump cancels on Put

Post by _MeDotOrg »

From Trump's Inaugural Address:

At the bedrock of our politics will be a total allegiance to the United States of America. Through our loyalty to our country, we will rediscover our loyalty to each other.

This has always been one of the most troubling sentiments in his speech, but I think it says a lot about the kind of relationship he wants. It is not based on ideals or principles. It is not based upon critical understanding nor truth. It is built on loyalty.

Trump is at the stage of the journey with his supporters where a belief in him is synonymous with belief in the country. The rest of the of the inhabitants are the 'deep state' or 'the other': RHINOs, Bush Republicans, Never Trumpers and Democrats who want to turn the country into Venezuela. As the group of supporters becomes smaller, it becomes cleaner and purer, assured of the greatness of their cause by the evil army amassed against them. Facts do not matter. Being true and loyal to DJT does. He alone can fix the system.
"The great problem of any civilization is how to rejuvenate itself without rebarbarization."
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"We've kept more promises than we've even made"
- Donald Trump
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_canpakes
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Re: Cohen spills beans on Trump/Russia: Trump cancels on Put

Post by _canpakes »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: Not only will (Trump)do the crime, but he will brag about it publicly while simultaneously denying it and then turn around and gaslight whoever points out the behavior. His supporters relish and delight in it.

It's no coincidence that so many of his supporters claim a strong religious sentiment, and ownership of the moral high ground. But they've never understood what that means. They never reasoned out their moral stand, instead they adopted and heeded a set of rules based on the idea that if they don't follow those rules, they'll be eternally spanked in the afterlife.

When Trump - a man much more tangible than their god - comes along, and exhibits the behavior that he does while occupying the pinnacle of the political food chain, his supporters relegate their theological deity to second place, and elevate Trump to the top tier, as they celebrate being able to break as many rules as can be tested. They're somewhat freed from the chains that bound them theologically, even if they cannot necessarily act the same way legally within their oppressed and economically shackled existence. But they can at least vicariously live through Trump.

'Pissing off liberals' is just part of that exciting new dynamic for these folks that seem to work hard at giving the impression that they find so little in life to be joyful about, primarily because they are incapable of finding joy otherwise, and never were given permission before now to openly act so childish without fear of having to pay some sort of social penalty. But in the aftermath of Trump's election, they can exact their petty 'revenge' and foist, with impunity, their inflated and unrealistic sense of personal injury upon others.

It's as if they're purposefully creating a Trumpian America, wherein everyone grows older, but not everyone grows up.
_subgenius
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Re: Cohen spills beans on Trump/Russia: Trump cancels on Put

Post by _subgenius »

MeDotOrg wrote:From Trump's Inaugural Address:

At the bedrock of our politics will be a total allegiance to the United States of America. Through our loyalty to our country, we will rediscover our loyalty to each other.

This has always been one of the most troubling sentiments in his speech, but I think it says a lot about the kind of relationship he wants. It is not based on ideals or principles. It is not based upon critical understanding nor truth. It is built on loyalty.
.

But is this not what it means to be loyal to the USA? does not loyalty to our country means allegiance to truth and understanding?
and is this sentiment not exactly the same sentiment that Lincoln expressed "...A man may be loyal to his government and yet oppose the particular principles and methods of administration".
or even Kennedy when he charges us with asking what we can do for our country?

I completely disagree with the notion that Trump supporters equate Trump with Country...that idea is more truthfully manifest in Obama and his supporters.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
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