Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

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_EAllusion
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _EAllusion »

Socialism does not require dictatorship. Socialist countries are vulnerable to totalitarian takeover because centralized government takeover of private decision making is a greased slope to authoritarianism. The successful socialist countries, which Kevin does not believe are socialist, all have important norms around only going so far with no intent to fully socialize their economies. Those socialist countries tend to rank quite high on economic freedom indexes. What makes them "socialist" is a modest degree in difference in the extent of the welfare state coupled with greater nationalization of industry and mandates that force greater worker participation in corporate governance.

If you discount those societies as socialist, then all the examples of socialism out there are authoritarian nightmare states with relatively low per capita standards of living. And if you discount those as socialist because that's not *real* socialism, then what we can say is that when so-called real socialists try to implement socialism, all we ever get is the counterfeit kind so best stay away from those "real" socialists. If you want to play the, "socialism can't fail; we can only fail socialism" game, fine. For important reasons related to socialism, you will always fail socialism.

But yeah, that's just "my" definition, right? Notice the common denominator in virtually all definitions. None of them require "dictatorships." They all require that the working class have control, which is not the case when you have dictators calling the shots.


The dictator is the representative of the people. That's the thing. When "the people" control things, that doesn't mean each person controls everything. That's an impossibility. It means that the people collectively govern. How governance to represent "the people" works is a separate question. And, as it turns out, "the people" often ends up having their will represented by an autocrat or a single-party system when you concentrate power in the hands of a central planning authority.
_EAllusion
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _EAllusion »

As for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, she's more of a new deal liberal, but young people have developed a trend of calling liberalism "socialism" that only seems to be accelerating. Venezuelan economic collapse can in significant part be laid at the feet of nationalization and centralized price controls to keep prices artificially low, both of which clearly are part of the socialist playbook, but we haven't seen Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez advocate that to my knowledge. The real risk for people like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in my estimation is that it gets people into the idea of being a socialist, which gateways them into terrible socialist ideas.
_Markk
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Markk »

Kevin Graham wrote:Markk, your ignorance can be summarized in your insistence that there is such a thing as a "Socialist/Dictatorship" model, when in reality this is just something you made up while conflating two things that have nothing to do with one another.

"My definition" as you call it is the definition that is universally accepted by those who know how to spell "government" (a word you just misspelled three times). Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and workers' self-management of the means of production. I'm going to highlight the common denominator in every definition for the term.

"Socialism is a social economic system under which the components of production are owned, administered and controlled by the people – the workers. In a socialist society, the strategic industries, services and natural resources are collectively owned by all the people. The democratic organization of the people within these industries and services is the Government. However, there are many interpretations, and in several countries socialism exists as part of a capitalist system." - What Is Socialism? Definition And Meaning

"Pure socialism is defined as a system wherein all of the means of production are owned and run by the government and/or cooperative, nonprofit groups." - Comparing Economic Systems: A Political-Economic Approach. Harcourt College Pub. p. 7.

"This alteration in the relationship between economy and politics is evident in the very definition of a socialist economic system. The basic characteristic of such a system is generally reckoned to be the predominance of the social ownership of the means of production." - The Economics and Politics of Socialism. Routledge. p. 87 Brus, Wlodzimierz (2015)

"Socialism, you see, is a bird with two wings. The definition is 'social ownership and democratic control of the instruments and means of production."

"The really essential element in most of the traditional definitions of socialism put forward during the last hundred years has been the public ownership of the material instruments of production. " - The Definition of Socialism: A Comment, Ronald L. Meet, The Economic Journal, Vol. 67, No. 265, p135

"A society may be defined as socialist if the major part of the means of production of goods and services is in some sense socially owned and operated, by state, socialised or cooperative enterprises. The practical issues of socialism comprise the relationships between management and workforce within the enterprise, the interrelationships between production units (plan versus markets), and, if the state owns and operates any part of the economy, who controls it and how." - New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics, Second Edition (2008).

"What else does a socialist economic system involve? Those who favor socialism generally speak of social ownership, social control, or socialization of the means of production as the distinctive positive feature of a socialist economic system" N. Scott Arnold. The Philosophy and Economics of Market Socialism : A Critical Study. Oxford University Press. 1998. p. 8

"Socialism may be defined as movements for social ownership and control of the economy. It is this idea that is the common element found in the many forms of socialism." - Busky, Donald F. (2000). Democratic Socialism: A Global Survey. Praeger. p. 2

"I never described Chavez's state capitalist government as 'socialist' or even hinted at such an absurdity. It was quite remote from socialism. Private capitalism remained ... Capitalists were free to undermine the economy in all sorts of ways, like massive export of capital." - Noam Chomsky

-------------------------------

But yeah, that's just "my" definition, right? Notice the common denominator in virtually all definitions. None of them require "dictatorships." They all require that the working class have control, which is not the case when you have dictators calling the shots.

If you really want to understand what happened in Venezuela you'd step outside this ____ propaganda that tries to pin Socialism on every problem in the world:

Capitalism, culture, and context

First, it is important to realise that Chavez chose to call his transformative project "21st-century socialism", but Venezuela's economy remained market-based and private-sector dominated throughout his time in office.

Though the social economy and the public sector were heavily promoted - including through nationalisation - the private sector was expected to remain dominant, and it did. A centrally planned socialist economy like Cuba's was neither the aim nor the reality.

Second, part of the problem was always that oil-rich, hyper-consumerist Venezuela was the last place you would expect socialism to blossom - and these characteristics caused grave problems for the government.

The crucial role of oil in the international capitalist system makes oil-price volatility a central player in Venezuelan development, as Maduro has discovered to his cost.

But more importantly, the sheer value of oil provokes the "resource curse" in undiversified economies like Venezuela's. With boom-time windfalls favouring exchange-rate shifts that make other exports uncompetitive, "petromania" leads to lavish public spending, while distorted incentives undermine ethics, entrepreneurship, and efficiency throughout the state and wider society.

As Al Jazeera's insightful documentary The Battle for Venezuela explains, this is nothing new. On the contrary, Venezuela's formation as a state and as a society was intimately linked to the oil industry, and this is reflected in its politics.

Oil, opposition, and obstacles to development

Long before Chavez took office in 1999, there were two Venezuelas: "the Venezuela that benefits from oil, and the Venezuela that remains in the shadow of the oil industry" as veteran Venezuela analyst Miguel Tinker Salas puts it.

The benefiting elite, from which the core of Venezuela's opposition emerged, rightly recognised that Chavez's promise to redistribute the oil wealth to the marginalised majority was sincere. But they also instinctively understood that Chavez wanted to rewrite the national narrative without the rich, white, educated, Western-facing elite as its heroes, thereby also robbing them of the social status that reproduced and ring-fenced their material wealth.

It is this cultural threat that explains the ferocity and durability of elite rage and obstructionism: staging the 2002 coup even though Chavez's democratic legitimacy was undoubted and then organising a devastating, management-led oil strike at a time when his economic policy remained more reformist than radical.

By his own account, it was the implacability and intransigence of this elite, bequeathed to him by Venezuela's capitalist history, that drove Chavez towards the idea of a more radical 21st-century socialism in 2005.

Like the bolivar, the claim of an "economic war" is a ludicrously devalued currency under Maduro. However, nothing suggests that provoking political problems through hoarding, cutting production, or manipulating the black-market exchange rate was ever beyond the pale for private actors with the power to do it.

Companies and wealthy individuals have also always had the clearest means and the most capital to invest in the large-scale currency arbitrage that has been bleeding Venezuela dry for over a decade.

But the effects of oil dependency extend far beyond a particular group or class. As one of the architects of Venezuela's social-economy drive puts it, the pervasive culture has always favoured "living off government transfers of [oil] rents instead of deservedly enjoying the fruits of productive work."

In Venezuela, social divisions are so deep and societal trust is so weak that the idea of a social contract, a national pulling-together, or even a basic acceptance of the rules of the game is a distant dream. As the local saying goes, "for my friends, anything; for my enemies, the law".

Politics must play out against a cultural backdrop that implicitly understands that you should use any means necessary to siphon off as much oil wealth as possible for you and yours....

... Chavez's response to implacable opposition and widespread corruption was to turn to those he trusted in the military and to the promise of social transformation through socialisation of the economy. But his faith in neither was repaid.

But just as capitalism itself was not to blame for the pacted corruption and murderous repression of prior governments that created the popular discontent and personal drive which brought Chavez to power, socialism itself is not to blame for the creeping authoritarianism of a Maduro regime that is now preventing replacement of a failing government and model.

In many ways, the blame game is a red herring, an exercise in cherry-picking to promote greater state intervention or the "free" market rather than any identifiable model. The statist might cite happy Norway before the Gulag, whereas the free-marketeer will surely prefer New Zealand's peaceful neoliberalisation during the 1980s to the murder and torture of Chile's under Pinochet.

The lesson is perhaps that there are no clean, textbook models. The real issue is whether a given political economy is producing desirable results for its citizens. Where once that was the case in Venezuela, clearly it is no longer so.


Here's why you can't blame socialism for Venezuela's crisis - Yahoo Finance

Don’t blame socialism for Venezuela’s condition


We can P hack anything Kevin...The facts are that the president of Venezuela just inaugurated himself, he more or less, like Chavez controls the country.

The state has control and owns all, part, or most of, oil, television, farming supplies, aluminum, electricity, steel, fertilizer, food stores (Mission Mercal), publishing house, banks, and more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... _Venezuela

The controlling party, which is basically a dictatorship, is named...United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV.) The basis of any form socialism is re-distribution of wealth through the government (I got it right).

You can spin it anyway you like and try to fit socialism into a perfect little box defined the way you need it to be, but that does not change what is happening there or the philosophy of the leadership, which is becoming more and more a dictatorship, the guy inaugurated himself a few days ago Kevin. I read people are losing an average of 19 pounds, many because of goverment interference and control of agriculture, in attempts to socialize the market.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Kevin Graham »

So basically what you're saying is that you choose to be just as ignorant and speak just as stupidly on this subject as you do most others subjects. It doesn't matter to you that dictatorships =/= socialism, you're just going to keep riding that assumption and milk it for all its worth anyway because....?

The fact is you haven't even begun to address the facts as I laid them out in terms of the proper understanding of Socialism and the degree to which any of it was actually applied in the Venezuelan system. All you've done is misspell some words while accusing me of spin.

The fact that you can google a list of a dozen companies owned by the Venezuelan government is irrelevant. Here is a list of three dozen state owned enterprises in the USA.

OH NO!

We must be a Socialist country!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-own ... ted_States
_Maksutov
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Maksutov »

Every country is socialist. There are no libertarian states.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_EAllusion
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _EAllusion »

Political continuums are an anathema to you guys, huh?
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

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‘Fox & Friends’ Host Falsely Claims Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Will Tax 70 Percent Of Paychecks

The congresswoman’s suggestion was that a 70 percent rate be applied only to earnings beyond $10 million.

Fox News host Ainsley Earhardt told New York Post columnist and Fox News contributor Michael Goodwin that Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) wants to tax his paycheck at 70 percent, when that’s not what the congresswoman has proposed at all.

On “Fox & Friends” on Monday, Earhardt asked Goodwin about why he thinks Ocasio-Cortez has so much support within the Democratic party.

“When you hear they’re going to tax 70 percent of your paycheck, if Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez gets her way, how do they have so much support?” she asked Goodwin.

Goodwin responded by saying that “young people today are not being educated properly in schools” and “don’t know the history of our country.”

“They don’t know the history of other countries. They don’t understand economics,” he said.

“She’s charming and delightful in many ways,” he said of Ocasio-Cortez. “She got an economics degree from Boston University and she clearly doesn’t understand how the unemployment rate works. She said that it’s low because so many people have two jobs. Now, how do you get an economics degree from a major college and not understand that that’s not how the unemployment rate works? How is that possible?”

There is so much to unpack there.

For one, Ocasio-Cortez did not propose taking 70 percent of anyone’s income. In an interview with “60 Minutes,” the 29-year-old suggested applying this marginal rate only to earnings amounting to more than $10 million. This means that those impacted would pay a much lower share of their income overall and the average tax rate for working Americans could potentially go down under her idea.

A report in CNBC explains how Ocasio-Cortez’s idea is in line with America’s economic history. While the top tax rate stood above 90 percent throughout the 1950s, deductions and tax avoidance led to taxes on the rich being “not that much higher,” according to a 2017 article by the Tax Foundation.

A top rate of 70 percent was active up until 1981, when President Ronald Reagan took office. The most affluent 1 percent were paying an average rate of 30.5 percent. By 1989, when Reagan left office, the top rate was reduced to 28 percent — but average tax rates for the most affluent had only slightly dropped to 27.9 percent.

Since then, the last three decades have had top rates below 40 percent. Many have tried to change that. Sen. Bernie Sanders proposed a 54.2 percent rate for income above $10 million in his 2016 presidential campaign proposal and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton proposed 43.6 percent for earnings above $5 million.

As for the congresswoman’s comments on unemployment, she discussed her understanding of how it’s calculated in July 2018 after the press and many members of the GOP ripped her words apart. It’s unclear as to why Goodwin is bringing up the remarks again, half a year later.

Ocasio-Cortez did not respond to HuffPost’s request for comment on Earhardt’s remarks, but she did fire off a response on Twitter after President Trump weighed in.

When Trump took questions on his way out of the White House on Monday, a reporter asked the president about Ocasio-Cortez calling him a racist. To that, Trump said, “who cares.”

The newly elected representative tweeted that she got “under his skin” and that she’d “say we’d be taxing 70% of Trump’s income, but he probably hasn’t made more than $10 million in years - and that’s the real reason he’s hiding his taxes.”
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Kevin Graham »

EAllusion wrote:Socialism does not require dictatorship. Socialist countries are vulnerable to totalitarian takeover because centralized government takeover of private decision making is a greased slope to authoritarianism. The successful socialist countries, which Kevin does not believe are socialist, all have important norms around only going so far with no intent to fully socialize their economies.


Correct. Democratic Socialism isn't Socialism. You could say it is a bi-product of socialism, but saying it falls under the umbrella of Socialism therefore it is Socialism, is misleading. English also falls under the umbrella of Germanic languages, but English isn't German. Democratic Socialism incorporates a level of market capitalism that Socialism itself doesn't allow.

If you discount those societies as socialist, then all the examples of socialism out there are authoritarian nightmare states with relatively low per capita standards of living. And if you discount those as socialist because that's not *real* socialism, then what we can say is that when so-called real socialists try to implement socialism, all we ever get is the counterfeit kind so best stay away from those "real" socialists. If you want to play the, "socialism can't fail; we can only fail socialism" game, fine. For important reasons related to socialism, you will always fail socialism.


I never said socialism can't fail, I've only said it hasn't really existed anywhere. And I'm not a proponent of Socialism. I absolutely love the free market, but I understand its downside as well and believe it needs to be frequently curtailed via government intervention/regulations. I'm a fairly wealthy person who supports a system that would ask me to pay higher tax rates. For example, if I'm making more than $10 million/year, I don't really see much of an argument for me to complain about a 70% marginal rate. That still means if I make $12 million (likely off of investments, while I sit on my ass and do nothing to "earn it.") I'm still bringing home around $8 million after taxes, which is about $7 million more than I'll ever need.

The dictator is the representative of the people.


In theory, but in practice? When is that ever really the case that the dictator works in the interests of the people? Having a title of something and then actually doing it aren't always the same thing. Like a dictator calling his system "Socialist" in order to gain the favor of the people, and then making way for the capitalist elite to exploit them.

That's the thing. When "the people" control things, that doesn't mean each person controls everything. That's an impossibility. It means that the people collectively govern. How governance to represent "the people" works is a separate question. And, as it turns out, "the people" often ends up having their will represented by an autocrat or a single-party system when you concentrate power in the hands of a central planning authority.


I agree entirely with what you're saying here, but this seems to be a problem with execution more than anything else. Can literally every person in a country have equal representation in management/ownership of all goods and services? Probably not, but it can certainly be practiced in ways that are far more equitable and democratic than just focusing all power with one person.

How about a country of 100 million run by 2,000 democratically elected representatives with term limits of two years, and no single person has executive power? What would that look like I wonder. The less power an individual has, and the less time he has it, then the less likely he is to be corrupted by it.

Incidentally, some years ago I was watching Michael Moore's "Capitalism: A Love Story" and I was very surprised that he was able to come across a couple examples of socialism in the workplace, where literally every employee shared the same ownership in the company as the next person. They're in your state of Wisconsin. As far as I know, the companies are still in business.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

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Democratic socialist countries are socialist. Specifically, they are socialist countries that affect socialist control through democratic, reformist means. Because revolutionary socialism is often just called communism, democratic socialism is almost synonymous with the word socialism. You quote a variety of sources that would accept that traditional understanding, so you're trying to have it both ways Kevin. It helps no one to define socialism in terms that no society ever has or ever will achieve and does not match the practical goals of any living self-described socialist or socialist nation. Normally, socialism is understood as a matter of degree of state control of enterprise, not absolute. It appears you want to do this solely because you don't like the negative connotation of the term socialism and want to say, "No, this is different."
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Kevin Graham »

It absolutely helps because it distinguishes between two very different systems whereas you would seemingly prefer everyone keep conflating them for their polemical purposes. I mean, really. What's the big deal about distinguishing between DS and S? You know damn well that virtually everyone on the Right assumes that by mentioning the S word in any context, the implication is basically "She's a communist" who wants to steal all your private property and give to the poor. I know, because this is what they do already.

Is it helpful?

All it does is muddy the waters and helps them with their agenda of disinformation and scare tactics.
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