Q4 ajax18 (& other Wall backers): Where Should the Wall Go?

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_EAllusion
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Re: Q4 ajax18 (& other Wall backers): Where Should the Wall

Post by _EAllusion »

President Walls this morning:

Lets just call them WALLS from now on and stop playing political games! A WALL is a WALL!


I love that Trump boosters keep trying to go with, "Actually, when he said Y, he meant X" only for Trump to almost immediately undercut them by saying, "I meant Y!" It's happened so many times I've lost track.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Q4 ajax18 (& other Wall backers): Where Should the Wall

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

God. He's just such a damned fool. Says a lot about his supporters, too. *shrugs*

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Chap
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Re: Q4 ajax18 (& other Wall backers): Where Should the Wall

Post by _Chap »

EAllusion wrote:President Walls this morning:

Lets just call them WALLS from now on and stop playing political games! A WALL is a WALL!


I love that Trump boosters keep trying to go with, "Actually, when he said Y, he meant X" only for Trump to almost immediately undercut them by saying, "I meant Y!" It's happened so many times I've lost track.


Well, he may just have been saying that anything (material or virtual, or logistical), set up or put in place on or near the southern border and intended in some way to reduce illegal crossings of that border is ... a WALL!

That way, the occasional flight of a few drones over any region of the frontier would entitle him to claim "Hey, see? I built THE WALL, just like I said, didn't I? Trump in 2020!!".
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_canpakes
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Re: Q4 ajax18 (& other Wall backers): Where Should the Wall

Post by _canpakes »

EAllusion wrote:President Walls this morning:

Lets just call them WALLS from now on and stop playing political games! A WALL is a WALL!


I love that Trump boosters keep trying to go with, "Actually, when he said Y, he meant X" only for Trump to almost immediately undercut them by saying, "I meant Y!" It's happened so many times I've lost track.

Cool. Back to putting up a chain link fence. That’s a wall, too. And quite a bit cheaper.
_ajax18
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Re: Q4 ajax18 (& other Wall backers): Where Should the Wall

Post by _ajax18 »

"Build the wall," to me is a willingness to unapologetically enforce the border. Most people here arguing about the logistics and semantics of "the wall," are in favor of open borders.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Gunnar
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Re: Q4 ajax18 (& other Wall backers): Where Should the Wall

Post by _Gunnar »

ajax18 wrote:"Build the wall," to me is a willingness to unapologetically enforce the border. Most people here arguing about the logistics and semantics of "the wall," are in favor of open borders.

No one here is advocating open borders. That is a huge strawman agument. All we are arguing is that there are more cost effective and better ways of insuring adequate border security than simply building a physical wall. Excessive dependence and reliance on a physical wall will probably actually undermine national security more than it helps it.

I am not saying that there are no instances where a wall or border fencing of some kind is useful or appropriate, but for most of the border between the USA and Mexico (especially the part between Texas and Mexico) it makes little or no sense, and would almost certainly create more problems than it solves.

This Graphic Shows Why President Trump’s Border Wall Won’t Stop Immigrants From Crossing

From the accompanying article:
But much about the wall is still unknown — including how much of it will be a wall at all. A barrier stretching from coast to coast is “unlikely,” Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly said at a congressional hearing earlier this year. Such a wall would be incredibly expensive and difficult to construct, as it would need to traverse rough terrain, navigate the winding Rio Grande, cut through many privately owned properties — particularly in Texas — and divide tribal lands in Arizona. Instead, Homeland Security is expected to take a more piecemeal approach to construction.

But experts say that a wall, like the fences that are in place now, won’t deter immigrants who are already risking their lives to cross the border. “As soon as security is increased [in one place], it’s the balloon affect — you grab one area and the flow goes to another area,” says Jason De León, assistant professor of anthropology at the University of Michigan, who has conducted long-term studies of undocumented border crossings.

For instance, some migrants take the risk of crossing rough terrain like the Sonoran Desert, where fences are designed to block vehicles, not pedestrians. Thousands of migrants have died in the exposed conditions around the border crossing.

“They have nothing left to lose,” says Anna Ochoa O’Leary, associate professor and head of the Department of Mexican-American Studies at the University of Arizona. “They say, ‘We have no jobs, no prospects. We cannot feed our children. We either wait for death here or we confront it and hope we can cross to feed our families.'”
Last edited by Guest on Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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_canpakes
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Re: Q4 ajax18 (& other Wall backers): Where Should the Wall

Post by _canpakes »

ajax18 wrote:"Build the wall," to me is a willingness to unapologetically enforce the border.

No, it’s a willingness to let vanity-driven soundbites dictate poor spending choices.

ajax18 wrote:Most people here arguing about the logistics and semantics of "the wall," are in favor of open borders.

No, they’re in favor of getting their money’s worth out of their tax dollars.
_canpakes
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Re: Q4 ajax18 (& other Wall backers): Where Should the Wall

Post by _canpakes »

ajax18 wrote:"Build the wall," to me is a willingness to ...

How about this: Hire as many border patrol agents as it takes to park one every quarter mile along your choice of any 1000 miles of the border, and pay them the average agent salary of around $75K per year.

Do that for 20 years, and you’ll end up spending about what Trump wants today in order to build ‘a wall’ along a much smaller length of the border.

If you want to “unapologetically enforce the border”, then you have other arguably more serious and cost-effective options than building a wall.
_Gunnar
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Re: Q4 ajax18 (& other Wall backers): Where Should the Wall

Post by _Gunnar »

Border wall's costs far outweigh benefits
President Trump’s bullying rhetoric against Mexico last week was not only insulting to Mexico, but also reflected the shallowness of his concept of the wall, its costs, and how they will be financed and borne.

The U.S. Congress, media, and public must diligently query the president about his calculus of direct costs of the wall and the assumptions on which they are based. He must also be pressed to address the indirect costs, of which there are many.

The most obvious cost is that of its physical construction. Trump has put the price-tag at $12 billion. Other estimates put it at $285 billion, which could potentially mean that each U.S. taxpayer would have to pay some $900 in new taxes.

These disparate claims appear to reflect different assumptions. Further, many parameters are not yet known, such as what type of wall is to be built in various segments of the border.

Parts of the border are not fenced already because the construction costs of a physical barrier due to the terrain, for example, were deemed to be prohibitively high by the George W. Bush administration.

Nor is it clear what the White House bottom line actually includes. Does it incorporate the cost of lawyers to negotiate compensation to landowners for building the wall on their lands in places where terrain does not allow it to be located on the actual border?

Does the number include the costs of hiring scores of forensic auditors to determine which remittances to Mexico come from U.S. citizens and which come from undocumented workers? Recall, Trump's campaign promise to fund the wall by seizing remittances to Mexico.

Depriving Mexico of remittances is bad for the U.S. because it depresses the economy of a principal trading partner and stimulates further illegal migration into the U.S. Moreover, its implementation is both very costly and difficult.

Indeed, the broader economic costs of the wall are detrimental to the U.S. economy no matter what financing option the White House picks. But some are worse than others.

If, for example, the White House persisted with the idea of imposing a tax on imports from Mexico, it would significantly hurt U.S. retailers. Many would pass off the costs onto U.S. consumers, including the segment who voted for Donald Trump.

From cars to vegetables, goods in the U.S. would become far more expensive. Moreover, Mexico could retaliate by imposing taxes on U.S. exports.

Also, Mexican citizens could retaliate by boycotting U.S. companies that operate in Mexico, such as Wal-Mart and Starbucks, as they are already attempting to do.

Such boycotts could send the shares and profits of U.S. companies plummeting, negatively affecting U.S. jobs, taxes, and the economy.

NAFTA could collapse altogether, wreaking havoc on the continental economy that has steadily grown over the past two-and-a-half decades. U.S. manufacturers, such as automakers, whose production lines are deeply integrated with Mexico, would be deeply hurt.

Contrary to its proclaimed goal of making America secure, the wall has the potential to undermine U.S. security. If Mexico stopped cooperating with the U.S. in going after violent criminal groups and drug cartels, the U.S. would be much worse off.

Mexico could retaliate further by giving up efforts to secure its southern border with Central America, augmenting the flows of migrants and contraband to the north.

The U.S. would then face bigger border security challenges than if it maintains a cooperative security relationship with Mexico without a wall. If U.S.-Mexico relations continued to plummet to an unprecedented degree, Mexico could even stop sharing counterterrorism intelligence.

A significantly weakened Mexican economy could further exacerbate the severe criminal violence that has gripped Mexico for over ten years.

Fewer remittances and increased unemployment and poverty have the potential of driving many more desperate young Mexican men to joining drug gangs, or to increased poppy cultivation, extortion, and other criminal violence.

The wall also has significant environmental costs. Parts of the border are some of the continent’s most significant wildlife corridors. Among the endangered species affected by the wall would be the jaguar, the Sonoran pronghorn, and Chiricahua leopard frog.

The other many negatively-affected species would include the desert tortoise, black bear, desert mule deer, and a variety of snakes. But even species that can fly, such as Rufous hummingbirds and the Swainson's and gray hawks could be harmed.

Vital pollinators that migrate across the border, such as insects, could end up burnt up by the lights necessary to illuminate the wall.

A poisoned U.S.-Mexican relationship could prevent the renegotiation of vital water sharing agreements, such as over the Colorado river.
That would not only critically harm the environment, but also potentially undermine both U.S. and Mexican water and food security and agricultural production.

U.S. belligerence on the wall, the hunting down and deportation of undocumented migrants, the destruction of NAFTA and the multiple blows to the Mexican economy could revive intense populism and nationalism in Mexico.

They could fuel the electoral prospects of populist firebrands. Such populism could reverse important recent accomplishments such as the badly-needed partial privatization of Mexico’s oil sector.

Worst of all, these multiple costs will not be offset by the proclaimed benefits. Smugglers from Mexico will dig tunnels under the wall or use drones to fly their contraband across it.

Migrants will get into boats, forcing the U.S. to face a less-acute version of the Mediterranean migration tragedy, but one of its own making.

These new forms of smuggling will create new adaptation costs, such as the need to increase the Coast Guard budget. The United States gains little and loses much by having its southern neighbor suffer.

Please note the highlighted portion about how our insistence on the wall at Mexico's expense would almost certainly severely undermine national security, rather than improve it.

Trump is either abysmally ignorant about these consequences of his proposed wall, or he just doesn't care. If he doesn't know how his insane insistence on this wall will undermine not only America's security, but its respectability, power and influence in the rest of the world (especially with our closest neighbor), it is certain that his boss, Vladimir Putin, knows that, and is ecstatic about it!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Q4 ajax18 (& other Wall backers): Where Should the Wall

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Hey Gunnar, Jason de Leon wrote a book about the history of us/mexico border walls and the effect on border crossings. It's called "The Land of Open Graves." He was featured in an episode of Radiolab, and I thought he was quite interesting. I have the book on hold at my friendly neighborhood library.
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