Green New Deal

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_Xenophon
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _Xenophon »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Anyway. I'm interested in the "wing" of Libertarianism that thinks UBI isn't socialism, but libertarianism.
I would guess the "wing" that supports the Libertarian National Convention which nominated Gary Johnson who supports UBI. I'm not sure that coalition of supporters has a name that would satisfy your question but clearly there is some large set of libertarians that were okay with Johnson's ideas.

A little bit of Googling led me to this link that I found illuminating: https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/ ... sic-income

Digging further into that will lead you down the career of Matt Zwolinski who apparently is the founder of the blog http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/ which seems to have some support. Does "Bleeding Heart Libertarians" count as a wing for you?
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_Doctor Steuss
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

ajax18 wrote:
You had a number of decent conservatives to vote for and you went bat ____ crazy for a guy who was an obvious train wreck.


Mitt Romney tried being a decent conservative. It didn't work. He didn't win and neither would any of the other 17 Republican presidential candidates in a general election. Ted Cruz is a decent conservative in my opinion. Even I admit he wouldn't have won.

I don't know if you meant to do so intentionally, but that's quite an indictment of Conservative voters that they won't vote for decent human beings.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Themis
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _Themis »

ajax18 wrote:
You had a number of decent conservatives to vote for and you went bat ____ crazy for a guy who was an obvious train wreck.


Mitt Romney tried being a decent conservative. It didn't work. He didn't win and neither would any of the other 17 Republican presidential candidates in a general election. Ted Cruz is a decent conservative in my opinion. Even I admit he wouldn't have won.


Mitt Romney would have easily won against Hillary Clinton.
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_Ceeboo
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _Ceeboo »

Themis wrote:
Mitt Romney would have easily won against Hillary Clinton.



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_canpakes
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _canpakes »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
ajax18 wrote:Mitt Romney tried being a decent conservative. It didn't work. He didn't win and neither would any of the other 17 Republican presidential candidates in a general election. Ted Cruz is a decent conservative in my opinion. Even I admit he wouldn't have won.

I don't know if you meant to do so intentionally, but that's quite an indictment of Conservative voters that they won't vote for decent human beings.

Then they lash out at Democratic-leaning voters for not voting for the Republican candidate, and say that this forced them to nominate Trump.

Not sure why they want Democrats to vote for the Republicans that they won’t vote for themselves, but there’s some strangely twisted logic dying in the midst of those explanations.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Xenophon wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Anyway. I'm interested in the "wing" of Libertarianism that thinks UBI isn't socialism, but libertarianism.
I would guess the "wing" that supports the Libertarian National Convention which nominated Gary Johnson who supports UBI. I'm not sure that coalition of supporters has a name that would satisfy your question but clearly there is some large set of libertarians that were okay with Johnson's ideas.

A little bit of Googling led me to this link that I found illuminating: https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/ ... sic-income

Digging further into that will lead you down the career of Matt Zwolinski who apparently is the founder of the blog http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/ which seems to have some support. Does "Bleeding Heart Libertarians" count as a wing for you?


I mean, the first link just kicks around the idea, and fairly discusses the setbacks to UBI. The second link doesn't really address how taking money from that guy and giving to this guy is anything other than left-wing ideology, which you admit tacitly by invoking Robert Nozick (in the link) who's an advocate for anarcho-libertarianism, which is what EA has shown himself to be over and over again.

For anyone who doesn't know what anarcho-libertarianism is, it's basically socialism because the only way it works is for the government to enforce it.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_subgenius
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _subgenius »

canpakes wrote:
subgenius wrote:um...you suggested typo upthread (awkward)

Awkward for you, yes. Try the link to the actual bill from the page that you linked to from Yahoo.
...

well this explains why you're so confident in 2 senators and 1 proofreader releasing typos all over numerous media outleys and over their own website, only to have to walk it back, scrub, edit, and burden apologetics like yourself with the awkward and embarrassing task of insisting that this sow's ear is a silk purse.
But keep it going, you guys are almost 100% conceding 2020....hair fire indeed.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_EAllusion
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _EAllusion »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
https://www.cato.org/search#?cludoquery ... rtarianism

There are 18000+ results.

What wing, specifically, within Libertarian ideology, supports UBI? For example, does it have a name outside of sharing some sort of ideology with an economist?

- Doc


What I asked you to search was universal basic income to see articles like this:

https://www.cato.org/publications/comme ... se-or-cure

Regarding the name of the "wing" I referred to, the reason I said "wing" is that there is no universally agreed upon name. The problem here is that the term "libertarian" used to refer to mainly the subculture I'm referring to, but has associations with other libertarian subcultures with distinct views. Ayn Randian Objectivists are libertarians of a sort. So is the paleo crowd.

"Bleeding heart libertarians" refers to a subgroup of libertarians that I probably fit within that tend to place emphasis on programs of social uplift and/or desire reductions in government to come from programs with those aims last, not first. But when I talked about a "wing" I meant something broader than that. When I say phrases like "regular libertarians" and "CATO / Reason crowd" I am gesturing at that. I'm not sure what would satisfy you here. Libertarians who hold mainstream liberal views on economics (note: "liberal" here means what many people would call "conservative.")?

Gary Johnson, the libertarian candidate for President the last two cycles, is an example of that type of libertarian as is most serious libertarian thought that doesn't sound like it was written as part of a manifesto.

UBI has broad, but not universal support among those libertarians because libertarianism is not opposed to wealth redistribution by the government in principle. Again, total opposition to that is a radical view even within libertarianism. UBI is viewed as superior to some traditional forms of welfare because it gives greater autonomy over how to use the resources so people can reflect their true priorities in purchasing decisions, can be easily made fair in its distribution model, and is resistant to government manipulation of behavior through carrots and sticks because it is a universal income reimbursement. Because it's so straightforward, it's also relatively cheap to administer.

I personally favor a universal basic income that comes in the form of a weekly rebate that is progressively a larger share of a person's income as their income goes down to offset a consumption tax applied to the public. I'd like that consumption tax to replace some other forms of revenue generation by the government starting with corporate taxes. I would be Ok with that consumption being a hefty carbon tax, if and only if there are offsets in other government revenue streams and the regressiveness of it is removed via a UBI in rebate form.

Where libertarians and progressives into the UBI differ is that libertarians tend to see it as replacing most of the welfare state where as progressives see it as an addition to currently existing programs. I'd rather give you a pile of money that you can choose to buy food with or not. Progressives tend to be more paternalistic and would prefer to give you food credits that can only be spent on food to make sure that you are spending your resources on the right choices. I tend to view paternalism as only appropriate for the mentally disabled.
_subgenius
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _subgenius »

EAllusion wrote:...

understandable respnse from one who has the most to gain from the "unable or unwilling" clause.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_EAllusion
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Re: Green New Deal

Post by _EAllusion »

subgenius wrote:
EAllusion wrote:...

understandable respnse from one who has the most to gain from the "unable or unwilling" clause.


Maybe next time you read an article on whatever right-wing site you got it and decide not to attribute your source while directly quoting it, maybe do the leg work to makes sure what you are linking actually includes what you are talking about. Maybe don't link the first website that comes up when you do a google search on "Green New Deal" and assume it must be there.

In the meantime, the actual resolution has been posted twice in this thread. (Spoiler: it's not the same thing as the Green Party website you confused it with). If you want to show support for your assertion there, you're certainly free to.
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