David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _Res Ipsa »

honorentheos wrote:I disagree that Rep. Omar's statements reflect a political complaint towards a particular lobby's influence in the same vein as arguing the NRA's influence is bad for America. I also think the apology she provided was a net positive in moving the discussion in the direction you rightly argue shouldn't be out of bounds.

Her statement was essentially a collection of tweets arguing US politicians were being paid to be pro-Israel by AIPAC. Maybe I have a weird idea of what criticism looks like but that isn't it, in my opinion. That's something else.


I don't understand your distinction at all. Let's just frame this up correctly. It wasn't a "collection of tweets" -- it was exactly two tweets. The first was in response to a tweet by Glen Greenwald asking why McCarthy (house minority leader) was spending so much time and effort trying to lobby for taking some action against Omar and Tlaib. His basis was accusing them of being anti-Israel. She tweeted "It's all about the Benjamins." When asked what money she was talking about, she tweeted "AIPAC" That's it.

So, what she did was claim that a politician was taking actions that were motivated by lobbyists dollars. She didn't criticize AIPAC. She didn't criticize Jews who donate to campaigns. She criticized McCarthy. It's no different from criticizing a Senator for voting against a gun bill and citing the reason as being the large contributions he received from the NRA.

Referring to her tweets as being similar to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, as some politicians did, is absurd. She didn't make any use of the "rich Jews who control the world" anti-Semitic trope. She just claimed that a politician was acting to the benefit of his donors.

So, it seems we can criticize any lobbying group for exerting influence over politicians. Any lobbying group, that is, except AIPAC. Because even mentioning AIPAC as having influence over politicians is anti-semitic.

honorentheos wrote:The House Democrat Leadership's statement:

"Legitimate criticism of Israel's policies is protected by the values of free speech and democratic debate that the United States and Israel share. But Congresswoman Omar's use of anti-Semitic tropes and prejudicial accusations about Israel's supporters is deeply offensive. We condemn these remarks and we call upon Congresswoman Omar to immediately apologize for these hurtful comments."

Her apology:

"Anti-Semitism is real and I am grateful for Jewish allies and colleagues who are educating me on the painful history of anti-Semitic tropes," Omar said. "My intention is never to offend my constituents or Jewish Americans as a whole. We have to always be willing to step back and think through criticism, just as I expect people to hear me when others attack me for my identity. This is why I unequivocally apologize."

"At the same time, I reaffirm the problematic role of lobbyists in our politics, whether it be AIPAC, the NRA or the fossil fuel industry. It's gone on too long and we must be willing to address it."

Should we feel this adjustment was a net negative for free speech? I don't.


I think she handled herself in a classy manner once it became clear that her leadership was going to throw her under the bus. I don't see this as a positive development for free speech at all. How are we supposed to be able to rationally and openly discuss Middle East policy, when any criticism in the vicinity of Israel gets shut down for anti-semitism?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_honorentheos
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _honorentheos »

We can agree that her response was classy. I don't think we'll find agreement in framing a comment about Israel that leans into the concept of wealthy Jewish cabals controlling the strings of power as ok in a world where we expect people who grew up culturally cool with black face as a Halloween costume being expected to evolve their views. We can talk about Israel's wrong-doings and treatment of Palestinians with more clear, and frankly more consistent language, if we let that into the conversation. It's not short changing free speech to expect as much which we see as obvious in one context. Let's agree there should be consistency rather than merely value judgements.
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_honorentheos
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _honorentheos »

ajax18 wrote:
Social media was very active during the Obama years yet you don't see anywhere near the same leaks. Can you show how social media is suppose to cause a big increase in leaks? Media's job in protecting freedom and democracy is to uncover things our politicians are doing that they shouldn't be doing


Because the media is a partisan Democrat institution perhaps? The leaks come because of loyal Democrats serving in the Deep State trying to reverse the results of the 2016 election. How can you not see this?

To be fair, one of my problems with the Obama administration was that they had promised to be much more transparent than their predecessor administration, but in fact were incredibly opaque. And they seemed to have a real boner for going after whistleblowers. If you want to go after Obama, I'd suggest that defensible angle rather than a weird conspiracy-based claim like the above.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Markk
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _Markk »

My question is another way of asking why you think the atmosphere in modern politics prevents you, Markk, from choosing principle over partisanship?


I was wondering to myself today about how the spouses of the folks on this forum view the questions we debate, which might follow your question. My wife is conservative by nature, but she will say "that is stupid" whether it is from the left or the right, basing it strictly from a honest perspective.

Are we wired to be conservative or liberal by nature?

I think as I get older, I am a little more open and forgiving. I honestly can say Trump is a idiot, I didn't want him for a candidate...but has done some good things, very good in my view, and I hope he does better, and I hope he understand he is a idiot. I am not sure why you believe I am not choosing principle, over partisanship? Honestly, can you give me a answer so I can understand what you are seeing in me, that I can't?
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_honorentheos
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _honorentheos »

Markk, you had said you didn't think it was possible in today's atmosphere. I ask why not? It's up to you how you engage as an individual.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Markk
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _Markk »

honorentheos wrote:Markk, you had said you didn't think it was possible in today's atmosphere. I ask why not? It's up to you how you engage as an individual.


Do you watch the news? Do you read this forum...I honestly don't know if it is possible. There are people here so full of hate for those that might disagree with them I don't even know how to communicate with them sometimes. If you don't see this, I really don't know what I can say that could satisfy you.

I will say this, I hope it is possible.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_honorentheos
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _honorentheos »

How are your decisions determined by the above rather than yours to make?
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Themis
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _Themis »

Markk wrote:I think as I get older, I am a little more open and forgiving. I honestly can say Trump is a idiot, I didn't want him for a candidate...but has done some good things, very good in my view, and I hope he does better, and I hope he understand he is a idiot. I am not sure why you believe I am not choosing principle, over partisanship? Honestly, can you give me a answer so I can understand what you are seeing in me, that I can't?


While I am not saying everything Trump does is not good, I still notice you give no examples of what Trump has done that is good even though you have been asked multiple times. I have to assume you don't have any detailed good examples from your silence.
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_Themis
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _Themis »

Markk wrote:Do you watch the news? Do you read this forum...I honestly don't know if it is possible. There are people here so full of hate for those that might disagree with them I don't even know how to communicate with them sometimes. If you don't see this, I really don't know what I can say that could satisfy you.

I will say this, I hope it is possible.


I would say a couple people may fit the hate category that tend to be fairly left or right, but most not even close. I think you are a nice guy, but I think you have this opinion and avoid discussion really due to a fairly shallow understanding of most issues that cannot compete with the likes of people like honorentheos or Res Ipsa.
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_Markk
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Re: David Duke backs Ilahn Omar

Post by _Markk »

Themis wrote:
Markk wrote:Do you watch the news? Do you read this forum...I honestly don't know if it is possible. There are people here so full of hate for those that might disagree with them I don't even know how to communicate with them sometimes. If you don't see this, I really don't know what I can say that could satisfy you.

I will say this, I hope it is possible.


I would say a couple people may fit the hate category that tend to be fairly left or right, but most not even close. I think you are a nice guy, but I think you have this opinion and avoid discussion really due to a fairly shallow understanding of most issues that cannot compete with the likes of people like honorentheos or Res Ipsa.


Okay thanks...LOL ...who are those couple of people?

I don't avoid discussion, I am simply over beating things to death in redundant circles, I did that at the old Fair forums for way too long...in my opinion you don't try to understand what I am saying or what I believe (or others with a different opinion) and why I (they) believe it, you just want others to believe like you. Right or wrong that is what I see in your posts.

But anyway who are those "couple of people here."
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
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