Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Themis wrote:Might be a good lesson in not jumping to a conclusion until more information is available, and it was the older guy with the drum who was getting into the boy's face. I might have reacted in a similar way, regardless of race, when I was 12.


The only conclusion that was falsified by subsequent footage was the conclusion propagated on social media about who started the confrontation. Nothing else has been falsified. No one has been "exonerated."

The irony here is that if we're going to start waiting for definitive proof for everything before we can draw conclusions, then we all need to just shut up about everything until complete audio/video footage of every verbal exchange comes to light. Yet, people like bach who are passing judgment on others for making reasonable assumptions about some of these kids, do so without enough information to know many things definitively. Meaning, they're doing exactly what they're accusing others of doing. Here are a few things we don't know definitively:

1. Whether Sandmann had malicious intent when blocking the old man (his say-so isn't proof either way)
2. Whether the kid who mocked with a Tomahawk chop was being racially insensitive (obviously he was, but those on the right dismiss it for some reason)
3. Whether the cat-calling kids on the bench were being disrespectful to those girls (obviously it was, but they're not addressing this either)
4. Whether the kid claiming Indians weren't really indigenous, started that spat
5. Whether "It isn't rape if you enjoy it" was in reference to abortion proponents claiming to be raped
6. Whether "Build that wall" was something any of the kids actually said (a lack of audio/video footage doesn't negate eye-witness testimony)
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Dr. Shades »

EAllusion wrote:That's an absurd reading of what he was doing.

How do you figure?

If you want to accept his Eddie Haskell routine, that's your prerogative, but that is not a plausible reading of his behavior at all.

No? If a Native American guy walked up to you then started playing his drum for you and started singing to you, how would you react?

The best you can say about him is that he puffed up like he would have to anyone and the Native American aspect was lost on him . . .

What is the "Native American aspect" that was lost on him?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

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_honorentheos
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _honorentheos »

EAllusion wrote:The Covington kids have not been "exonerated." This investigation, done by a firm hired by their school, narrowly looked into questions that aren't central to the main complaint against (some of) them. If people want to decide for themselves that is Ok to racially mock Native Americans, that's fine, but they don't get to say that because they are Ok with this, that means the Convington kids did nothing wrong. They're not heroes. They were riled up bros engaged in obnoxious behavior. That some people mistakenly assumed they initiated the confrontation or that no video evidence can be found that any of them shouted "Build the Wall" doesn't create some sort of argument voodoo where responding to a Native American signing with Tomahawk chops, passive-aggressive stare-downs, and mock chanting becomes cool.

It's really impressive how many people have managed to convince themselves that some rather over-the-top racial mocking is totally fine. They basically did the equivalent of a bojangles routine to a black person and people are all, "See, they did nothing wrong!"

I think I may have misjudged just how acceptable racism directed at Native Americans still is. Granted, we have a sports team called "The Redskins" just out there existing. I sense I'm being naïve.

Every video that's come out since that initial clip showed the early portrayal was misrepresenting what happened. There is a gross exaggeration going on to turn some kids doing a tomahawk chop in that situation into "over-the-top racial mocking" and "a Bojangles routine". The kid taking the brunt of the public scorn was found guilty by online mob justice because he seemed to be a dick and everyone projected some serious mind-reading into what was going on there. This should not have become a national story, and what has happened since then is simply embarrassing. There were people calling for the kids to be doxed, assaulted, and they were vilified because a short clip on the internet made the rounds. It's damned insanity. People who can't walk back from that are broken and adding to the national disfunction.
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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Dr. Shades wrote:No? If a Native American guy walked up to you then started playing his drum for you and started singing to you, how would you react?


You mean if he was walking through a crowd and everyone but me was making way for him to pass? I'd probably step aside.

Do people really believe that if the kid stepped aside the old man would have turned towards him anyway and started a 3 minute stare down? He didn't do that to anyone else, and the only reason this happened is because Sandmann was the one person in the crowd who didn't move. Even the woman behind the old man noted that they were acting like a mob by encircling them and mocking his song.
_honorentheos
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _honorentheos »

Kevin Graham wrote:Except the conclusions were basically the same among folks on both the right and left. I have Trump worshipping friends on Facebook who lashed out at these kids the same day the initial clip went viral. In fact that is how I first found out about it. So it wasn't a partisan thing until more footage came out and the Right tried to feed their favorite narrative and claim Liberal bias.

There was nothing spun though.

No one edited the video. No one could see the kid actually looks like he's 12 from any other angle:

Image

Nor could they tell he was standing on a step that just made him look taller than the kid who is too small to ride most roller coasters. I think most people try to give other people the benefit of the doubt but most of us couldn't fathom why anyone would be right up in someone's face like that for three straight minutes unless they were trying to intimidate.

I watched the news segments as it happened and I watched them as more footage was released, and the "Liberal media" were the first to correct perceptions while FOX was focused on assigning blame by misrepresenting what the media initially reported. Compare CNN's immediate correction to that of FOX News coming across more information that refutes one of the hundreds of fake news claims they propagated the day before. You'll have to wait for Shep Smith around 5pm the next day if you're expecting an official retraction. No one on their Prime Time shows will admit having jumped to conclusions.

But no one in the media, from what I saw anyway, condemned these kids. They simply reported on what eye witnesses had told them and shared the available footage.

Now what happened in social media is another story entirely, but that isn't the liberal media.

Reread what you are saying and think about this - the initial video misrepresented so many thing about what happened, any judgment made by anyone on any side based on that video alone turned out to be way, way off.

The problem is people jumped to conclusions because OUTRAGE! It's a prime example of just how stupid we've become as a society that we can't hold off on a judgement but rush out with our pitchforks and torches at the drop of a hat.

Everyone, including their own school, was condemning the kids that first weekend. And then as more evidence came out, and investigations began we started seeing some people walking back. There are still a lot of people condemning the kids, and tellingly it's moved from claims of what the kids did to basically what they represent. They aren't people anymore, they're symbols for those who can't accept they screwed up a call in the heat of an emotional moment. EA, looking at you.
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_honorentheos
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _honorentheos »

Kevin Graham wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:No? If a Native American guy walked up to you then started playing his drum for you and started singing to you, how would you react?


You mean if he was walking through a crowd and everyone but me was making way for him to pass? I'd probably step aside.

Do people really believe that if the kid stepped aside the old man would have turned towards him anyway and started a 3 minute stare down? He didn't do that to anyone else, and the only reason this happened is because Sandmann was the one person in the crowd who didn't move. Even the woman behind the old man noted that they were acting like a mob by encircling them and mocking his song.

Check out the video in Cam's link in the last post of this thread where this was hashed out on the board before and see if that is still your perspective:
viewtopic.php?p=1167514#p1167514
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Kevin Graham »

honorentheos wrote:Check out the video in Cam's link in the last post of this thread where this was hashed out on the board before and see if that is still your perspective:
viewtopic.php?p=1167514#p1167514


We had a thread about this a couple months ago I believe and I provide three videos that represented the totality of all the video footage from start to finish. I was good with watching all of it in context without all the intermittent Right Wing commentary in the video linked here. I don't need anyone to tell me what I'm looking at.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Kevin Graham »

honorentheos wrote:Reread what you are saying and think about this - the initial video misrepresented so many thing about what happened, any judgment made by anyone on any side based on that video alone turned out to be way, way off.


Like what? I concede that the initial video was misleading people about who started what, but videos in and of themselves don't misrepresent unless they've been manipulated in some way.

The problem is people jumped to conclusions because OUTRAGE! It's a prime example of just how stupid we've become as a society that we can't hold off on a judgement but rush out with our pitchforks and torches at the drop of a hat.


I don't think it shows us how stupid anyone is. The only thing I was outraged about was this kid smirking in a 3 minute stare down with a native american while his buddies chanted and mocked along the way. Does the added footage change my mind about any of that? Not so much. The biggest thing that changes my initial perspective was seeing how young this kid really is. He looked like a potential 21 year old asshole in the initial video. He was taller because he was standing on steps and we couldn't see his snaggle toothed grin that would have given away his true age.

Everyone, including their own school, was condemning the kids that first weekend.


And some of them should be condemned. Does the fact that the Native American initiated the encounter somehow excuse the racist and disrespectful mocking that was going on in the background?
_Themis
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Themis »

Kevin Graham wrote:The irony here is that if we're going to start waiting for definitive proof for everything before we can draw conclusions, then we all need to just shut up about everything until complete audio/video footage of every verbal exchange comes to light.


I don't think it comes even close to definitive proof so the best position to maintain is I don't know.
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Here's a follow-up video that puts everything back within the realm of sanity:

https://youtu.be/lSkpPaiUF8s

spoiler alert: Liberals were wrong.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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