Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

[Guest]

Check out the video in Cam's link in the last post of this thread where this was hashed out on the board before and see if that is still your perspective:
viewtopic.php?p=1167514#p1167514

We had a thread about this a couple months ago I believe and I provide three videos that represented the totality of all the video footage from start to finish. I was good with watching all of it in context without all the intermittent Right Wing commentary in the video linked here. I don't need anyone to tell me what I'm looking at.

That is the thread from last month when this happened (it seems like a couple of months ago, though). And it is pretty clear in watching the context that 1) the BHI are the primary problem on all fronts including the people spouting off racist crap, 2) the guy with the drum and the kid in his way in the original video did not end up in that situation because the kid moved to confront him nor is the guy prevented from walking to one side or the other, and 3) the guy turns around when the kid leaves to catch his bus that showed up. Most of the time the kid is just looking at the guy while he chants and there are kids clapping along with him. The tomahawk chops, the only actual racist thing going on in so far as the kids' actions, happened early on and isn't apparent during the so-called confrontation. It looks very much like something some kids who are just looking for a way to physically engage with the drumming acted. Is it right? No. But there is nothing else in their behavior or words that demonstrates they were doing this out of anything other than ignorance of it's offensiveness.

The whole thing is insane. The kids are not being overtly racist. Some of them apparently bought MAGA hats while in DC. They've come to symbolize a lot of things that they, as indivudal people, are not actually guilty of in any sense of the word. The kid at the center of it all is being blamed because he wore a hat some people have loaded with a lot of meaning and symbolisms that equates it with KKK hoods and Swastikas.

I don't know, man. It's a problem that we can't acknowledge the initial reactions to the video were off. Way off. To then come back and not only fail to acknowledge that but double down because of some bigger thing it represents - all with some kids in the middle of it, who wore hats and other super evil stuff - is amazing in what it says about people.

[_Kevin Graham]

I don't think it comes even close to definitive proof so the best position to maintain is I don't know.

Yeah, like that happens with anyone. Ever.

I don't care who you are, you're going to draw conclusions about things you hear and see. And you're likely never going to get the full context. I don't think it makes people stupid or judgmental, it just makes you human.

[_Themis]

1. Whether Sandmann had malicious intent when blocking the old man (his say-so isn't proof either way)

The problem is all the video doesn't really suggest he is trying to block the old man and some of the video shows him trying to control some of his friends. I would suggest none of them are 100% innocent, but no video shows this kid or old man doing anything bad.

[_honorentheos]

I don't think it comes even close to definitive proof so the best position to maintain is I don't know.

Yeah, like that happens with anyone. Ever.

I don't care who you are, you're going to draw conclusions about things you hear and see. And you're likely never going to get the full context. I don't think it makes people stupid or judgmental, it just makes you human.

If you are aware of this, and choose to withhold judgement rather than act on initial impressions because of that knowledge, it makes you a better kind of person.

[_Themis]

I don't think it comes even close to definitive proof so the best position to maintain is I don't know.

Yeah, like that happens with anyone. Ever.

I don't care who you are, you're going to draw conclusions about things you hear and see. And you're likely never going to get the full context. I don't think it makes people stupid or judgmental, it just makes you human.

There is lots of video that come a lot closer and many that would meet definitive proof of something. It's just that we don't have to make conclusions with little evidence, especially since we don't have to make any real choices in these kind of situations. And yes we all have tendencies to jump to conclusions on little evidence.

[_EAllusion]

There is a gross exaggeration going on to turn some kids doing a tomahawk chop in that situation into "over-the-top racial mocking" and "a Bojangles routine".

...

The whole thing is insane. The kids are not being overtly racist.

Like I said, if you don't think it's all that racist to do a Tomahawk chop and mock chanting to a Native American while he's singing, it doesn't look like I'm going to persuade you. I think there's lots of people who seem to think that way, and I am totally willing to cop to overestimating America in 2019. I had all sorts of clues that racism towards Native Americans is widely accepted to the point that extremely overt racism is viewed as perfectly fine by lots of people and I just ignored them. My bad. Maybe give it another 100 years. It is over-the-top racism, though.

[_honorentheos]

To the above point in my post above, it's this very thing that illuminates the flaws in the current state of journalism in the US. If anyone is supposed to get the facts first and then report, it's the news. There has been a few articles since this incident along those lines that are well worth the time to read and consider. For example -

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... st/580897/

[_honorentheos]

There is a gross exaggeration going on to turn some kids doing a tomahawk chop in that situation into "over-the-top racial mocking" and "a Bojangles routine".

Like I said, if you don't think it's all that racist to do a Tomahawk chop to a Native American while he's singing, it doesn't look like I'm going to persuade you. I think there's lots of people who seem to think that way, and I am totally willing to cop to overestimating America in 2019. Maybe give it another 100 years. It is over-the-top racism, though.

If you think a group of teenagers spontaneously doing a tomahawk chop as a response to drumming can only be understood as overtly racist rather than perhaps ignorant of why it may be offensive, I doubt I can persuade you to step back and reassess, either. It's not over the top racism. Saying it is leaves zero space for calling out much more intentional, overt expressions of racism. And where does that leave the public discussion space? screwed.

[_Dr. Shades]

No? If a Native American guy walked up to you then started playing his drum for you and started singing to you, how would you react?

You mean if he was walking through a crowd and everyone but me was making way for him to pass? I'd probably step aside.

Maybe so, but I don't think you'd be obligated to step aside. Nobody has the right to expect everyone else to simply part like the red sea whenever he or she wishes to walk a straight line. Take me for example: Whenever someone is standing in a spot, if he or she was there first, my default instinct, and action, is to step around that person. Easy peasy.

Do people really believe that if the kid stepped aside the old man would have turned towards him anyway and started a 3 minute stare down?

Probably not.

He didn't do that to anyone else, and the only reason this happened is because Sandmann was the one person in the crowd who didn't move.

True, but I maintain that Sandmann had the right-of-way by virtue of the fact that he was there first. He would've been obligated to move aside only if the guy had said, "Excuse me" or, like I do, "mind if I sneak past?"

Even the woman behind the old man noted that they were acting like a mob by encircling them and mocking his song.

It was a crowd--perhaps a loud one--so it would've been hard to get in for a listen without moving closer.

As for the "mocking" part, I don't know what a "tomahawk chop" looks like, but a google search revealed that it's something people do at sporting events where the team for which one is rooting has a Native American mascot. That doesn't make it right, of course, but as (I believe) DoctorCamNC4Me pointed out, these are 16 year-old kids from a Catholic high school, not polished statesmen with years of diplomatic experience.

[_Kevin Graham]

That is the thread from last month when this happened (it seems like a couple of months ago, though). And it is pretty clear in watching the context that 1) the BHI are the primary problem on all fronts including the people spouting off racist ____,

Agreed, but the BHI is an entirely different thing really. They're idiots ranting on their own, and I have no idea why so many of those kids decided to surround them as if to encourage them to keep ranting, but to each their own I guess.

2) the guy with the drum and the kid in his way in the original video did not end up in that situation because the kid moved to confront him nor is the guy prevented from walking to one side or the other

Right, and that is the big take away from the subsequent footage. Though for folks like EA and me, it doesn't really affect how we look at the kids' behavior. But I was glad to see that the encounter didn't begin with kids going after the Indians.

3) the guy turns around when the kid leaves to catch his bus that showed up.

If you're talking about the Indian, he and his little group were entirely surrounded until an adult chaperone from the group instructed the kids to move along. After they dispersed he was free to go in any direction he wanted.

Most of the time the kid is just looking at the guy while he chants and there are kids clapping along with him.

Yep. Though that was the same takeaway from the initial video. The kid never spoke, he just stood there and smirked. My biggest takeaway from the context is that the stare down lasted a full 3 minutes.

The tomahawk chops, the only actual racist thing going on in so far as the kids' actions, happened early on and isn't apparent during the so-called confrontation.

Not sure how that matters. You also have a couple dozen kids chanting which could easily be interpreted as mocking the Indian's demonstration. And there were clearly side discussions going on and we only caught a glimpse of a couple of them and heard clearly a few soundbytes. One of them included a kid telling the Indians they're not indigenous to any land, and that being conquered is just part of life. That's like going to a Black Pride demonstration and telling them they have nothing to be proud about.

The whole thing is insane. The kids are not being overtly racist. Some of them apparently bought MAGA hats while in DC. They've come to symbolize a lot of things that they, as indivudal people, are not actually guilty of in any sense of the word. The kid at the center of it all is being blamed because he wore a hat some people have loaded with a lot of meaning and symbolisms that equates it with KKK hoods and Swastikas.

I don't know about all that. It seems to be your projection into the matter that hasn't been expressed by me or the media. Social media maybe.

I don't know, man. It's a problem that we can't acknowledge the initial reactions to the video were off. Way off. To then come back and not only fail to acknowledge that but double down because of some bigger thing it represents - all with some kids in the middle of it, who wore hats and other super evil stuff - is amazing in what it says about people.

I can acknowledge that context is important and that the full context changes things a bit. I just don't see it changing as much as you seem to think. There were kids in the group who were still being little assholes. The star of the show made the decision, for whatever reason, to engage in a 3 minute staredown with an old man who was demonstrating. If that part had never happened I doubt any of this would have made the news or social media.