Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

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_EAllusion
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _EAllusion »

ajax18 wrote:
That's not "overt racism" either, then. Very little is, apparently.


It's to the point that there are no sins except racism, no morality to be discussed save it be racial. All things are racial and to be viewed with the history of the US always being brought up over and over again as a cudgel, never to be forgotten. Millenia from now your descendants will still be griping about the segregation that once existed and using it as an excuse for their own reverse racist actions that will continue forever.


What's the world coming to when you can't racially mock a Native American? Haven't white people suffered enough at their hands?
_honorentheos
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _honorentheos »

EAllusion wrote: Further context debunked some of those additional assumptions some reporting made, but all the additional video still confirms what people generally were upset about in the first place.

This played out in real time on the board.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=50917

What people were up in arms about on this board was Trump-related. People got it wrong. Period.

The episode is a fantastic illustration of how the media ecosystem works, though. We keep getting lessons that if you are caught in a political outrage on the from the right, you just need to insist you did nothing wrong, double down in counter-outrage, and eventually you'll get through it.

Or, alternatively, we can call out when both sides get it wrong with a bit of even-tempered judgment that doesn't descend into post hoc retellings that make it seem like we were right all along.
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_honorentheos
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _honorentheos »

EAllusion wrote:
honorentheos wrote:If you choose to turn intentional racism and ignorance of why an act or behavior is offensive into one category, then I assert you are shutting down the ability to have public discussions that lead to positive change. A person who acted out of ignorance isn't the same as a person who intentionally mocked someone by choosing to use offensive gestures and language. It just isn't, and it's harmful to turn the discussion into this kind of binary approach. It's offensive when it's done to avoid admitting you made a mistake.

You are arguing a position that makes wearing blackface generally not an act of overt racism. I respectfully disagree. I also don't think acknowledging that it is racist prevents us from talking about other forms of racism. Failing to recognize it as racism gives fertile ground to the only kind of racism you seem worried about, though. Indeed, the Virginia Democrat blackface problem is quite similar to the racial taunting of Nathan Philips to the point that the defenses you are using of the Convington teens are equally applicable to them. It's just "ignorance." Just boys having some fun. They didn't intend to express deep-seated racial hatred by it.

There's a common criticism of our media environment that journalists will refuse to describe anything but a few symbols as actually racist. If you don't literally say the n-word or belong to the KKK, you're basically in the clear. At least you are if you are perceived as center-right. No matter how racist what you say or do is, they'll describe it in phrases like, "what some people take offense to" or "racially charged" or "controversial actions." To me, it sounds like you are deep in that culture. I just don't disagree with it; I think it is deeply harmful as it causes people to blind themselves to what racism is and short circuits people's ability to contextualize it.

You're arguing overt racism is a term that ignores the intention behind an act. In what other realm of public discourse do we disregard intention? It's absolutely essential to the discussion, and you know it is. You're having a hard time just saying, "Yeah, I jumped the gun on this one."
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_EAllusion
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

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honorentheos wrote:You're arguing overt racism is a term that ignores the intention behind an act. In what other realm of public discourse do we disregard intention? It's absolutely essential to the discussion, and you know it is. You're having a hard time just saying, "Yeah, I jumped the gun on this one."
I'm satisfied that in order to defend your view, you've adopted a radical view of what constitutes racism that dismisses most ordinarily understood forms of racism. If you can't bring yourself to think minstrel shows are racist, I think you might want to reexamine your presuppositions.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

honorentheos wrote:You're having a hard time just saying, "Yeah, I jumped the gun on this one."


That will never, ever, EVER happen. You might as well wait for Trump to admit he did, in fact, collude with the Russians during his campaign.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _honorentheos »

EAllusion wrote:
honorentheos wrote:You're arguing overt racism is a term that ignores the intention behind an act. In what other realm of public discourse do we disregard intention? It's absolutely essential to the discussion, and you know it is. You're having a hard time just saying, "Yeah, I jumped the gun on this one."
I'm satisfied that in order to defend your view, you've adopted a radical view of what constitutes racism that dismisses most ordinarily understood forms of racism. If you can't bring yourself to think minstrel shows are racist, I think you might want to reexamine your presuppositions.

If you argue that any expression that is racially offensive should be considered on par with overt, racially-motivated demonstrations then I think you might want to reexamine what that means for public discourse. Even judging the taking of another human life is understood to require consideration of intention. Your argument here appears to be little more than an attempt to avoid self-examination and ownership of having jumped the gun. It's shameless.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _EAllusion »

Honor, you don't appear to think I misread what occurred in the video, so why would you assume I "jumped the gun?" Instead, you seem to think that I have it wrong in describing anything that isn't expressed with intent to convey racial contempt as racist. If you love telling your co-workers racist jokes, but don't do so with the intent to express direct racial contempt, then that's not racist in your view. Just "ignorant" and barely worth anyone's time. That's quite the position you have there, and if you want to make that the basis of your disagreement, then fine. I wouldn't pat yourself on the back about my stubbornness in not agreeing with you, though.

You think racial mocking of Native Americans is, if not fine, at least such a small deal that even acknowledging that it is bad shows poor priorities. I don't. We agree to disagree.
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

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EAllusion wrote:Honor, you don't appear to think I misread what occurred in the video, so why would you assume I "jumped the gun?" Instead, you seem to think that I have it wrong in describing anything that isn't expressed with intent to convey racial contempt as racist. If you love telling your co-workers racist jokes, but don't do so with the intent to express direct racial contempt, then that's not racist in your view. Just "ignorant" and barely worth anyone's time. That's quite the position you have there, and if you want to make that the basis of your disagreement, then fine. I wouldn't pat yourself on the back about my stubbornness in not agreeing with you, though.

You think racial mocking of Native Americans is, if not fine, at least such a small deal that even acknowledging that it is bad shows poor priorities. I don't. We agree to disagree.

Wow.

I'm pretty clearly saying that a group of kids who responded to a native American drumming and chanting by doing a tomahawk chop and chanting are very easily doing so out of ignorance of why it would be seen as offensive. And that saying this ignorance is irrelevant, their actions should be treated as on par with the assumption they chose to show up in MAGA hats and face down native American demonstrators because Trump! is bad for public discourse because it leaves no room to differentiate between White Nationalists marching in jack boots with torches and a kid who chose to dress up like their favorite basketball player Michael Jordan in black face in the late 80's. Or a Somali-American Congresswoman who relied on anti-Semitic tropes in expressing exasperation with US-Israel relations that ignore Palestinians. But yeah, feel free to say I'm cool with racism as long as someone doesn't mean any harm or whatever you want to paint it as being. That's how you cow people down in this game, right? Make them afraid of being called racist so they can't consider there is something wrong with your argument? Can't imagine how that will do any harm to public discourse...

Or, you know, consider that intentions matter in how the public discourse ought to engage with an incident. Because adulting is hard I guess.

ETA: I do think you misread the video based on your responses on the first page of the other thread, to be clear. Not sure what you mean by that. I think you are continuing to try and reframe the cause for viewing it as, "one of the worst "feel bad" videos I've seen in some time. It's not objectively the worst story out there, but the symbolism is appalling on a level that is difficult to take in." by refocusing on the so-called symbolism instead of acknowledging that behind this are people being unjustly affected by our new, and harmful, national outrage sport. Yeah, I know you said you hoped it wouldn't destroy the kid's life. Yet here we are with the evidence largely having absolved the kid of what he was accused of other than wearing a hat, and what are you doing? Slathering on the symbolism so the kid knows just how racist he actual is and how much his having wore a MAGA hat and looked a guy in the face should haunt him to his dying day...
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_EAllusion
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _EAllusion »

If I condemn racist jokes as racist, then I leave no room to condemn lynchings as racist? No, that makes no sense. It's possible to condemn both, describe both as racist, and still appreciate that there is a difference in severity in the two things. It's not hard at all.
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _honorentheos »

If that were my argument I might feel quite devastated by that rebuttal. Shame, really.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
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