Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

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_EAllusion
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:If that were my argument I might feel quite devastated by that rebuttal. Shame, really.


Your argument is that condemning racist mocking as racist collapses important distinctions between racist acts that you describe as not-racist via an idiosyncratic definition of racist and racist acts you think are more serious. This collapse robs us of the the rhetorical ability to address more serious acts of racism. I merely applied that to another form of racism that isn't as severe as some other kinds of racism. Don't fret, though, as what the Convington teens did is somewhat worse than telling racist jokes.

Since this argument is quite clearly false on its face, but it is unclear which faulty assumption you are choosing to base it on, it's hard to point out the specific flaw in your reasoning.

Again, if you want to rest your exoneration of the Convington teens on the idea that racial taunts of a Native American aren't that big of a deal, then understand that not everyone agrees with you. I think that's bad. Even lots of defenders of them are off in Shades-esque la-la land where the teens were actually being totes respectful and further video helps clarify their respectful, rather than offensive behavior.

What's weird to me is you started out by complaining of comparing their behavior to doing a bojangles mocking to a black person, but your subsequent reasoning has 100% defended that just the same. You've decided what matters here is the intent to express racial contempt, so you've taken off the table a great deal of racist behavior. And if someone were to call you an Indian Giver for doing that, that'd be fine, because people generally didn't use the phrase to express racial contempt.
_honorentheos
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _honorentheos »

Got that wrong.

My argument is treating every instance of offensive behavior the same in public discourse interferes with the ability to engage acts caused out of ignorance differently from those that are explicitly, overtly originating out of racist intent.

And that's what you're doing. And it's wrong.

But please, remind us how you had hoped this wouldn't ruin the kid's life again.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:Got that wrong.

My argument is treating every instance of offensive behavior the same in public discourse interferes with the ability to engage acts caused out of ignorance differently from those that are explicitly, overtly originating out of racist intent.

And that's what you're doing. And it's wrong.


So the flaw in your reasoning is that if you condemn an act, then that's treating it the same as any other act you might also condemn? That didn't seem immediately false to you?
_honorentheos
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _honorentheos »

EAllusion wrote:
honorentheos wrote:Got that wrong.

My argument is treating every instance of offensive behavior the same in public discourse interferes with the ability to engage acts caused out of ignorance differently from those that are explicitly, overtly originating out of racist intent.

And that's what you're doing. And it's wrong.


So the flaw in your reasoning is that if you condemn an act, then that's treating it the same as any other act you might also condemn? That didn't seem immediately false to you?

Or, you know, how you go about it is important and should be scalable accordingly. That might be part of this you're missing. But somehow I doubt you disagree in most instances so much as you still can't just say, "Yeah, I should have been more careful before I spoke out on the original video."
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_honorentheos
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _honorentheos »

Come on, EA. You do realize you have argued in the other thread that it is right to paint the kid in the video with the same level of racist intent as if he had chosen to wear a Confederate Flag and got in the native American's face with the same hostility as a MMA fighter at a weigh in might display.

But yeah, you hope this doesn't ruin the kid's life even though all of the original concerns about the kid proved unfounded. Except, he wore a hat people associate with Trump so SYMBOLISM. But not the kind of symbolism that would argue this incident is symbolic of a problem in civic discource generally because it happens to be the liberal side that screwed this one up, right?
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_Lemmie
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Lemmie »

honor wrote:If you think a group of teenagers spontaneously doing a tomahawk chop as a response to drumming can only be understood as overtly racist rather than perhaps ignorant of why it may be offensive, I doubt I can persuade you to step back and reassess, either. It's not over the top racism. Saying it is leaves zero space for calling out much more intentional, overt expressions of racism. And where does that leave the public discussion space? screwed.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, honor, that "spontaneously doing a tomahawk chop as a response to drumming" can be interpreted as high school students being "perhaps ignorant of why it may be offensive," and that specifically pointing it out instead as overt racism leaves no space for discussions of other types of racism. Why? Only the very worst examples of racism can be discussed?

Taunts like the tomahawk chop are strictly disallowed in the catholic high school sporting events here in this East coast, tristate area; use of it by student's cheer sections will result in significant individual and group penalties, like any other discriminatory taunting. All students know this.

My comment does not apply to any of your other arguments, but if you are arguing that high school students in Kentucky don't know the tomahawk chop is inappropriate, I think that is unlikely. Do you think they broke it out to show solidarity? In any case, arguing their innocence by virtue of ignorance misses the point. It is inappropriate behavior.
honor wrote:Again, if you are excusing a group of adults because reasons but are blaming a group of teenagers because of their judgement, you're doing something wrong.
That, I agree with. The chaperones seemed to have time to shut things down sooner, and it was their responsibility to do so. If they had time, then yes, they should have not let any of this happen.
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _honorentheos »

I'm not arguing their innocence. I'm arguing that the incident shouldn't be treated as if the kids had shown up at a native American demonstration with intentional racist motivations to be disruptive or engage in racially motivated intentional acts. Talking to kids about why the act is seen as offensive gets a lot more difficult if they are being treated like they showed up with malicious intent. In the context largely set by the BHI, it seems teachable moments have been stamped out. I don't know what they've been taught. I do know the limited tomahawk chopping one sees in the video is minimal and largely swallowed up in other ways the kids are keeping rhythm with the drums through clapping or jumping or whatever. The idea they deserve what happened is ludicrous.

Or maybe telling kids they deserve to become the objects of half the nation's contempt because they were filmed in a crazy situation largely being more adult than the adults in the videos is how the nation moves forward. Why not.
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_honorentheos
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _honorentheos »

I will add I do think the main kid isn't ever shown doing anything racist, and the close up videos rarely show the smirking expression everyone associates with his demeanour. There's clear video of him mostly standing there without the smile. It's presumptive to get in his head the way people have, and shameless to assert it was right to have done so and justify much of what has been said.

How does one tell a kid who stood in front of five overtly racist and offensive black men spouting hate and native Americans telling them the way they can make America great again is to go back to Europe that they are the ones who acted wrong and are the real problem because some of them bought MAGA hats while in D.C. and a handful of their classmates started doing the tomahawk chop when there was drumming? How does a kid not come out of that learning anything other than people are screwed up?
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Jersey Girl »

honorentheos wrote:This played out in real time on the board.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=50917

What people were up in arms about on this board was Trump-related. People got it wrong. Period.


Yes. People got it wrong. I got it wrong. Why? Because I fell for the power of suggestion and the strong emotional reaction that the video when first presented on that thread was intended to produce.

It worked. I usually pose question after question, picking things apart to the point of irritating people here. But not that time. I totally bought into the emotional response.

It was reported that the MAGA hats were bought as souvenirs on the field trip. That makes perfect sense.

The tomahawk chop is a symbol. It is offensive to Native Americans and it is used as a cheer at sporting events. For all we know the students were cheering in support of the Native Americans. What we do know is that the symbol today has dual interpretations. What we don't know is what the students intended by it's use.

This story has been told and reworked over and over again from all sides. I suspect that the students got caught up in one or more moments, and reacted spontaneously in sub groupings the make up of which changed repeatedly throughout the time frame and in ways they didn't spend less than one second thinking about what they were doing. The simply reacted.

I don't think that there was racist intent behind their behaviors as a group or sub groups. Could some of the students have had racist intent? Sure. I certainly can't condemn the whole, not knowing what each student was thinking at the time or even IF they were thinking. I'm more inclined to lean towards reacting rather than intuit intentionality in the behaviors.

I'm not a mind reader. I have no way of knowing.

I know this much. Had the chaperones done their job, none of this likely would have happened for they would have moved the student group away from and out of the fray.

I don't think the students had any more idea of what they were doing or why, than the Native American group did in the moment, nor could either of those groups predict the behavior or intent of the other.

The Black Israelites certainly knew what they were there to do.

I watched the video that Cam posted. I'll watch it again tomorrow and see if my opinion changes on second view.
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_Lemmie
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Lemmie »

Interesting. My point was only about the act of tomahawk chopping, and how its use is viewed. Arguing that it was spontaneous, reactionary, in the moment, or that the intent, mind by mind, was unknown would be irrelevant. The act is considered discriminatory taunting and ignorance is not a defense. Being provoked, or arguing they could have meant it "supportively" :rolleyes: are not defenses either. Again I am commenting only on this minor part of the action, and how it would be viewed as a student behavior. Just because other worse things happened doesn't mean this should continue to be glossed over as acceptable behavior in the moment.
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