Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

EA's entire post was a megaload of horse crap, and yet our resident 'center-right' politician keeps doubling down on it. Boy, if this cat isn't a clear and obvious reason to vote against people who share his world view I don't know what is. Good damned luck, world, if you put someone like him into anything approaching any sort of power. Wow.

- Doc

[_honorentheos]

It certainly illuminate how inaccurate it was to claim his position is practically adjacent to someone claiming the kids did nothing wrong.

[_EAllusion]

And also recognize this has nothing to do with what the boys actually did but is instead about the proxy war aspects of it that you are engaging in, such as is reflected in how you followed the above

I'm not engaging in a "proxy war." You are being deliberately obtuse. You have boys behaving badly. This, in of itself, is relatively minor against the backdrop of all the horrible things that happen every day. Even though it is not the worst thing ever, it is something that is criticizeable and something they should feel guilty for. Because of the context in which it occurred, it has symbolic implications we can think about because human beings are capable of abstract thinking. It's important to not blame some teenagers behaving badly for broader social trends in America, but we can understand how teenagers behaving badly fits within and can symbolize broader social trends in America and evoke thoughts about them too. This is not hard to understand. It is an ordinary way to think about news stories. Lots, arguably most, news involves relatively insignificant things apart from their abstract connection to bigger phenomena.

It's all about the war.

Or, the fact that a vast media apparatus and cultural response to it sent a message that if you use the correct shibboleths you can get away with, even be praised for bad behavior does send a message to people that, well, let's just quote that part again - if you use the correct shibboleths you can get away with, even be praised for bad behavior. I regard this as socially corrosive. If you don't find social incentives to behave badly also socially corrosive, you should say so directly.

There's nothing to connect to Trump as far as how a bunch of HS kids behaved in a place where a group of adults were acting irresponsibly.

You have people that were literally dressed in the insignia of Trump while engaging in racial taunting, something Donald Trump is well known for. Claiming that this has symbolic relevance to Trump, when we are talking about a literal symbol of Trump doing something Trump is notorious for, is not some reach.

Philips has admitted his decision to move into the middle of the two groups and essentially confront the kids was because he saw white males and thought they were a threat to the BHI.

Yeah, he was completely wrong about that. Fortunately, you don't need to think this to find their behavior fine. The initial video did not imply this, nor was this included in the bulk of the initial reaction. I know, because I watched it develop in real time. People just reacted negatively to watching a teen do a passive-aggressive stare down to an older Native American while some of his peers taunted him in the background. That's obviously bad irrespective of whatever stories you want to add on top of it. You won't state that you're fine with doing mock tomahawk chops and chanting to a Native American, but you defend it to a degree and/or criticize anyone who says that's bad that it's essentially indistinguishable from being fine. And so we have the core disagreement here.

Thank you. It's helpful to make it clear this is a reframing on your part motivated by a broader anti-Trump sentiment than it is about what actually happened.

I think you are incapable of reading what I am saying on this subject in an unbiased fashion that allows you to actually understand it, which is ironic given that you are casting yourself as someone taking great effort to be free of emotional bias.

You seem incapable of distinguishing my comments on the behavior of the teens with my comments on the symbolic and social implications of the story about the behavior of the teens, which is an odd thing for a logic lord above petty biases to fail at.

[Guest]

Two simple requests, EA.

1 - Provide an extended form of evidence (for example, a different, extended video clip other than the viral video) that supports your claim that the kid at the center of this "behaved badly".
2 - Provide reasonable evidence that the kids generally were "behaving badly". I'd like to see what you mean by this claim. As in, don't just say they did the tomahawk chop and should be ashamed. Demonstrate what you mean by it with evidence.

Thanks.

I should note, you seem to be missing that I take issue with your claims about what the kids actually did. And I do this in the context of what has been reported, demonstrated in longer, more comprehensive videos, and different angles that show different views of what was going on in that space at that time. You seem to think it should be taken as a given that there is something that took place there that at least justifies attaching meaning to it that is larger than what happened. I'm asking you to back that up with more than just casual claims that it should be apparent because the kid in the center of it is on video smirking in a clip that was promoted by a fake Twitter account.

[_EAllusion]

How does that make any sense?

Are you saying that high school students and Native American protestors wield more influence?

What type of influence are you thinking about here and on whom or what?

I already outlined this. First, affluent teens from private Catholic schools is a important pool future Supreme Court Justices and CEO's are drawn from. Black Isrealites? Not so much. This tends to make us pay a little more attention to what is socially acceptable in that group. I think that is relatively minor compared to the second point which is that they are part of a broader culture that has significant sway over norms of acceptable behavior in America. To wit, please find me more than a handful of people who defend what the Black Israelites did. (You won't.) Meanwhile, we can find no shortage of defenders of the teens' behavior. That's why discussion of them seems more socially relevant. Condemning crazy street preachers, on the other hand, seems trite.

You can tell that they keep getting brought up as awhataboutism gambit by folks like Doc because even after repeated condemnations of them, responses about the Convington teens still gets him to say, "Yeah, but why don't you address the the Black Isrealites?!"

[Guest]

YouTube a link to the piece in a video that shows what you are envisioning when you are defending your position. Let's see what you assume is the bad behavior that justifies your ongoing entrenchment regarding the position they're more than just a bunch of HS kids where a very small number did a tomahawk chop briefly in response to the drumming in the broader context of the kids doing what you might expect kids to do to a rhythm. You know, jump, nod along, clap, etc. It sure didn't look to me like the kids who did it kept it up for very long at all, and adopted different ways of moving. Again, it goes back to my point that what appears to have happened justifies explaining to them why it is offensive but certainly not arguing they are the new Trump Youth and deserve national scorn.

[_EAllusion]

YouTube a link to the piece in a video that shows what you are envisioning when you are defending your position. Let's see what you assume is the bad behavior that justifies your ongoing position.

So, one the one hand, you take great offense to the idea that you are suggesting they did nothing wrong or close to it. On the other, you are demanding that it be demonstrated with a detailed analysis of video that anything wrong at all occurred.

[Guest]

YouTube a link to the piece in a video that shows what you are envisioning when you are defending your position. Let's see what you assume is the bad behavior that justifies your ongoing position.

So, one the one hand, you take great offense to the idea that you are suggesting they did nothing wrong or close to it. On the other, you are demanding that it be demonstrated with a detailed analysis of video that anything wrong at all occurred.

I take issue with arguing that what happened in that space at that time supports what you seem to be claiming without your supporting those claims given it contradicts what I see in the longer format videos. I think the board deserves to see exactly what you have in mind given your commitment to your position and argument regarding what it represents.

There is a lot of space between, "nothing wrong" and "deserving that nation's scorn". I've argued at worst what is apparent is a handful of kids who do need to be made aware of why the tomahawk chop is offensive. But that pales in comparison to the outrage machine put in motion and tries to tie what happened to Trump or the whole history of racism in America.

[_Jersey Girl]

How does that make any sense?

Are you saying that high school students and Native American protestors wield more influence?

What type of influence are you thinking about here and on whom or what?

I already outlined this. First, affluent teens from private Catholic schools is a important pool future Supreme Court Justices and CEO's are drawn from. Black Isrealites? Not so much. This tends to make us pay a little more attention to what is socially acceptable in that group. I think that is relatively minor compared to the second point which is that they are part of a broader culture that has significant sway over norms of acceptable behavior in America. To wit, please find me more than a handful of people who defend what the Black Israelites did. (You won't.) Meanwhile, we can find no shortage of defenders of the teens' behavior. That's why discussion of them seems more socially relevant. Condemning crazy street preachers, on the other hand, seems trite.

You can tell that they keep getting brought up as awhataboutism gambit by folks like Doc because even after repeated condemnations of them, responses about the Convington teens still gets him to say, "Yeah, but why don't you address the the Black Isrealites?!"

Yeah, but why don't you address the Native Americans?

[_honorentheos]

The irony here is Whataboutism is essentially the foundation for your own position, EA. Turns out everything said about the kid in the viral video turned out to be wrong? Yeah, but whatabout Trump, racism in American, oh, and there were a handful of kids in the group who did a tomahawk chop at some point? Oh, and don't forget they are white, affluent kids attending a private Catholic high school so whataboutthat?