EAllusion wrote:The argument you are quoting is that correction of facts that some members of the media misreported is what gave the right the wiggle-room to close ranks and defend the students' behavior in totality. What made people so upset in the video in the first place was its symbolic significance, and that remains. You appear to really misunderstand this argument badly. It's not saying, "Because this story allows us to talk about how bad Donald Trump is, it's Ok to gloss over misreporting of facts about it." It's saying, "What was bad about this video and why it affected people in the first place is untouched by any false assumptions some people added to it."
That's the same thing said in a different way. Just because the second sentence assumes the bad things are facts doesn't change that. You're really having a hard time with this apparently. I know, in your mind a half dozen kids in a much larger group doing the tomahawk chop for maybe five seconds probably does equates to MAGA hat kid aggressively confronted a peaceful native American demonstrator. So you can't see the insanity that is your position on this subject.
It's easy for me to forget that I'm largely interacting with people who hail from a culture that is notorious for extreme racism towards Native Americans. I can see how comparatively mild forms might not seem like a big deal at all. This is just a point of contention. I think mock chanting and tomahawk chops to a Native American is actually quite over-the-top in how racist it is. To someone who may have been enlightened in their culture for rejecting donating blood to Native Americans to make them more white, it might not seem so bad. But whatever you think about this, I could not possibly be more clear about what my arguments actually are and you weren't ballpark representing them accurately.
That's it. Everyone is racist who doesn't share your binary view of the world. Brilliant. What a mensch, resorting to passive-aggressive name calling to avoid backing off from a mistake.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
honorentheos wrote:That's the same thing said in a different way. Just because the second sentence assumes the bad things are facts doesn't change that. You're really having a hard time with this apparently.
There quite distinct things. I accept that you can't tell the difference. That's become increasingly apparent, but they're totally different arguments.
That's it. Everyone is racist who doesn't share your binary view of the world. Brilliant. What a mensch, resorting to passive-aggressive name calling to avoid backing off from a mistake.
I'm happy to leave our disagreement at that one of the two of us thinks that doing mock chanting and tomahawk chops to a Native American's face is racist while the other doesn't. That does seem to be the main disagreement here.
honorentheos wrote:That's the same thing said in a different way. Just because the second sentence assumes the bad things are facts doesn't change that. You're really having a hard time with this apparently.
There quite distinct things. I accept that you can't tell the difference. That's become increasingly apparent, but they're totally different arguments.
If "what's bad about the video" were a thing. Turns out, what's bad about what happened (not the video) is a bunch of adults behaved badly towards a group of HS kids then maybe not so much. But keep assuming that the kids are terrible racists because you watched a viral video put out by a fake Twitter account that triggered you to feel all the bad feels towards a kid smirking in a MAGA hat.
That's it. Everyone is racist who doesn't share your binary view of the world. Brilliant. What a mensch, resorting to passive-aggressive name calling to avoid backing off from a mistake.
I'm happy to leave our disagreement at that one of the two of us thinks that doing mock chanting and tomahawk chops to a Native American's face is racist while the other doesn't. That does seem to be the main disagreement here.
Hey, Fox News guy, share the video of what you mean by this rather than alluding to something that sounds terrible so the people will get up in arms over this alluded-to evil.
Again, your problem is seeing everything as black-and-white racism that demands "Elephant GUN!" as the solution. God forbid one sees a handful of kids do something offensive in a much larger context where there is worse things going on by other people being confrontational and think, "The appropriate thing would be for someone to explain to them why that's offensive." And don't come back and say that isn't what you are doing. Your quote above is EXACTLY that. It's reducing everything into, "Then you must be ok with racism if you don't see things in the binary way I do."
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
EAllusion wrote:I'm happy to leave our disagreement at that one of the two of us thinks that doing mock chanting and tomahawk chops to a Native American's face is racist while the other doesn't.
EAllusion wrote:I'm happy to leave our disagreement at that one of the two of us thinks that doing mock chanting and tomahawk chops to a Native American's face is racist while the other doesn't. That does seem to be the main disagreement here.
This seems fairly dishonest since I think honorentheos has been quite clear he considered it raciest. Just that it may not be well understood by the small number of kids who did it.
Also would you agree that without mind reading the kid who was the main focal point cannot reasonably be concluded he did anything wrong?
honorentheos wrote:Why does Philips get a free pass for using a drum as a tool for getting into people's faces including the kid in the video? That's even more bananas.
Because we're holding high school students accountable for their behavior according to adult level behavior standards and expectations while not actually holding the adults accountable to any damn thing?
I'm going with that.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
If this is what Liberalism does to people I think we need to re-think aligning with it. Something is deeply disturbing about his kind of worldview. Buyer beware. :/
eta: Let's ignore the Blue Outs, White Outs, and other body paint games. EA clearly doesn't understand minstrel makeup uses red or pink around the mouth to emphasize the racial stereotype, not white.
White makeup around the mouth and eyes has been used in blackout and Halloween makeup to suggest a "skeleton" or "monster" look. Do an image search for "black body paint" and you'll see it. And in the case of the one clear picture of a Covington student, from years ago it should be noted, he has a Chelsea or Cheshire smile with large white circles around his eyes. Looking to equate this with a minstrel look is just bigotry.
- Doc
As a Scot I'm personally and deeply offended by their Braveheart march where students are seen bare chested wearing shorts and pseudo kilts following a piper.
Oh wait. I'm not.
How do we characterize the students in complete white face? Are those the hallmarks of white supremacy?
These are school spirit practices and traditions. People need to get a grip and quit viewing everything through the lens of racism.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: eta: Let's ignore the Blue Outs, White Outs, and other body paint games. EAllusion clearly doesn't understand minstrel makeup uses red or pink around the mouth to emphasize the racial stereotype, not white.
Red, pink, white, and just making sure there is an exaggerated unpainted spot around the lips and eyes have all been used in traditional minstrel looks.
In your link that you used to prove I'm "mentally ill" it notes when it was discussed locally on a message board comments saw it as blackface then:
Whether it was intentional or accidental, that it made it out into the wild isn't great. You think it is fine. That's that.
The "color" events are not consistently using colored faces with emphasis around the eyes and mouth. I think you are choosing to see what you're looking for here, EA.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
honorentheos wrote:: When the missing context came to light—when we learned the boys didn’t seek Phillips out, that they had just been on the receiving end of angry taunting by the abrasive cultists of the Black Israelites—it filled out the story just so, giving the conservative coalition all the cover it needed to close ranks around these students.
But if context is key, we should draw the lens back even further than the events of this past weekend. There’s a reason these boys, their taunts and their MAGA hats, triggered a mass cultural gag reflex. Whether you think liberals botched the Sandmann controversy or not, the widespread revulsion didn’t stem from a misapprehension of anything.
To the contrary, both strong and mild critiques of the Covington Catholic schoolboys place them comfortably within ugly trends that have thrived in certain communities since before Donald Trump won the 2016 election.
Trump supporters, young and old alike, recognized a long time ago that simply chanting “Trump!” at immigrants and minorities is an effective way of letting them know they are not welcome. “Build the wall!” chants serve a similar purpose, as do MAGA hats, which are perhaps less implicitly violent than past symbols of intolerance, but still serve as menacing reminders to everyone not in the MAGA tribe of where they stand in the national pecking order.
Nicholas Sandmann shouldn’t have to bear the weight of this phenomenon alone. He is but one of thousands of kids and adults who have taken part in these rituals, and he may yet mature into someone who feels embarrassed by his youthful antics. The purpose of broadening the discussion is to assess the damage Trump is inflicting on an entire generation, and on all of society, not on the Covington boys per se. He is making more and more Nicholas Sandmanns, fewer and fewer of whom will ever mature into tolerant individuals. Sandmann may outgrow Trumpism, but the harm of Trumpism is that more kids like Sandmann will grow up to be adults like Trump.
Honor, I wanted to preserve the excerpt you presented in its entirety, but I amended the color tagging to select just the first 4 paragraphs for my question, which is: Do you believe that the response described is unexpected, or unreasonable, or both, as regards observers reacting more to what they believe are particular recent societal trends in behavior, regardless of whatever extent the Covington kids may or may not had explicitly been trying to act in the same manner?
