Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

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_honorentheos
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _honorentheos »

canpakes wrote:Do you believe that the response described is unexpected, or unreasonable, or both, as regards observers reacting more to what they believe are particular recent societal trends in behavior, regardless of whatever extent the Covington kids may or may not had explicitly been trying to act in the same manner?

Setting aside the question of if it's unexpected to focus on if it is reasonable, I would first argue it's important to consider how symbols work in communication.

If a symbol is an object that represents something more complex, then it would be functioning properly when the person receiving the symbol decodes it and adds back in much of the detail and nuance into the thing being represented with the recognition the symbol is not the thing itself.

Children doing early drawings are often conveying symbols that can be revealing in their own way where, for example, they recognize a face can be conveyed as two dots, a squiggle, and an arc. The sun is conveyed through a circle with lines coming off of it to represent light. A mountain is conveyed via a triangle with maybe a squiggle to show a snow line.

More elegant examples can come from an artist who has distilled something of the essence of a thing into a few lines such as this "symbol" for a horse:

Image

Our modern world is full of glyphs that serve to tell us quickly what may be found if we click on a symbol on a screen or go to a certain place indicated in a document.

Relying on symbols to communicate is both reasonable and expected.

But it's not reasonable for someone to let the symbol take the place of the reality it is meant to be communicating. We shouldn't allow the stereotypes or symbolic aspects of a thing become the thing itself. We should unpack the symbol but not imagine that takes the place of reality.

In the case of the viral video, that the symbolism of the kid in the MAGA hat as a bully smugly staring down an elderly Native American gentleman was interpreted a certain way initially is understandable. Is it reasonable? I don't think reason is involved at that point so we'll have to say no. That's not to say it is bad, just that reason isn't at work with symbolism here.

If, in unpacking the symbolism of the video, we imagine we have uncovered something about the reality of what took place in that space at that time, then we are not being reasonable. It conveyed an idea, but it is not a substitute for reality. And if we allow the symbol to BE the thing it is supposed to be symbolizing, we're using them wrong.

It's difficult to say we should expect we would choose to be unreasonable at that point and not be saying we have low expectations of ourselves in so doing.

Essentially, I don't think it's excusable to let the symbol define for us what really happened.

ETA: I should add, one of the reasons most of us find Trump so disgusting and reprehensible is that he does this very thing all the time. Part of the symbolism taken from the viral video is rooted in the reputation Trump has of diminishing minorities and stereotyping them. Dennis Prager does this in his online university "lectures" all the time as well, reducing complex subjects into 6 minute lessons on how a person should recognize the symbolism of complex things so that it becomes easy to view the world in the way Prager wants his audience to see it. Like a Mormon missionary telling an investigator their feeling of warmth and comfort is the holy ghost telling them Joseph Smith was a prophet and there really were Nephites, it's a way of hacking a person's ability to engage the world by defining for them what symbolism should be assigned to something that may be much more complex and not as black-and-white as we prefer. And people choose to participate in doing this because the world really is complex and nuanced, and it would be so much easier if someone could reduce it down.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Ceeboo
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hey Jersey Girl! :smile:

Jersey Girl wrote:People need to get a grip and quit viewing everything through the lens of racism.


While your advice is fantastically profound and wise (and so desperately needed), I'm not very confident it will even be considered.
_Themis
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Themis »

Ceeboo wrote:Hey Jersey Girl! :smile:

Jersey Girl wrote:People need to get a grip and quit viewing everything through the lens of racism.


While your advice is fantastically profound and wise (and so desperately needed), I'm not very confident it will even be considered.


Even though you are posting in a thread where most did consider it. You might want to look in the mirror to see who is the real fool. :razz:
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Jersey Girl »

honorentheos wrote:
canpakes wrote:Do you believe that the response described is unexpected, or unreasonable, or both, as regards observers reacting more to what they believe are particular recent societal trends in behavior, regardless of whatever extent the Covington kids may or may not had explicitly been trying to act in the same manner?

Setting aside the question of if it's unexpected to focus on if it is reasonable, I would first argue it's important to consider how symbols work in communication.

If a symbol is an object that represents something more complex, then it would be functioning properly when the person receiving the symbol decodes it and adds back in much of the detail and nuance into the thing being represented with the recognition the symbol is not the thing itself.

Children doing early drawings are often conveying symbols that can be revealing in their own way where, for example, they recognize a face can be conveyed as two dots, a squiggle, and an arc. The sun is conveyed through a circle with lines coming off of it to represent light. A mountain is conveyed via a triangle with maybe a squiggle to show a snow line.

More elegant examples can come from an artist who has distilled something of the essence of a thing into a few lines such as this "symbol" for a horse:

Image

Our modern world is full of glyphs that serve to tell us quickly what may be found if we click on a symbol on a screen or go to a certain place indicated in a document.

Relying on symbols to communicate is both reasonable and expected.

But it's not reasonable for someone to let the symbol take the place of the reality it is meant to be communicating. We shouldn't allow the stereotypes or symbolic aspects of a thing become the thing itself. We should unpack the symbol but not imagine that takes the place of reality.

In the case of the viral video, that the symbolism of the kid in the MAGA hat as a bully smugly staring down an elderly Native American gentleman was interpreted a certain way initially is understandable. Is it reasonable? I don't think reason is involved at that point so we'll have to say no. That's not to say it is bad, just that reason isn't at work with symbolism here.

If, in unpacking the symbolism of the video, we imagine we have uncovered something about the reality of what took place in that space at that time, then we are not being reasonable. It conveyed an idea, but it is not a substitute for reality. And if we allow the symbol to BE the thing it is supposed to be symbolizing, we're using them wrong.

It's difficult to say we should expect we would choose to be unreasonable at that point and not be saying we have low expectations of ourselves in so doing.

Essentially, I don't think it's excusable to let the symbol define for us what really happened.

ETA: I should add, one of the reasons most of us find Trump so disgusting and reprehensible is that he does this very thing all the time. Part of the symbolism taken from the viral video is rooted in the reputation Trump has of diminishing minorities and stereotyping them. Dennis Prager does this in his online university "lectures" all the time as well, reducing complex subjects into 6 minute lessons on how a person should recognize the symbolism of complex things so that it becomes easy to view the world in the way Prager wants his audience to see it. Like a Mormon missionary telling an investigator their feeling of warmth and comfort is the holy ghost telling them Joseph Smith was a prophet and there really were Nephites, it's a way of hacking a person's ability to engage the world by defining for them what symbolism should be assigned to something that may be much more complex and not as black-and-white as we prefer. And people choose to participate in doing this because the world really is complex and nuanced, and it would be so much easier if someone could reduce it down.


Best post on the thread!

You say: Children doing early drawings are often conveying symbols that can be revealing in their own way where, for example, they recognize a face can be conveyed as two dots, a squiggle, and an arc. The sun is conveyed through a circle with lines coming off of it to represent light. A mountain is conveyed via a triangle with maybe a squiggle to show a snow line.

You rolled right into my hometown here, honor. Children begin to develop the ability to think symbolically between 2-4 years old. Drawing development is part of our cognitive and physical developmental assessments. The child begins with random scribbles and then, in accordance with their brain development as you say, forms begin to emerge. Circles, dots, lines, radials, crosses, the horizon (your snow line), aerial views, xray drawings are all part of our development as human beings. The one thing I would take exception with in your above is that the triangle isn't always a mountain, the radials aren't always a sun. When a child is around 4-4.5 years old, they begin to name the figures and that is when we know in part what the young artist intended to convey.

I'd also like to point out that the strokes you described are also writing strokes. Letters are symbols that represent sounds, groups of letters and finally word strings, and then added sight words, punctuation, are symbols all intended to convey meaning.


You say: But it's not reasonable for someone to let the symbol take the place of the reality it is meant to be communicating. We shouldn't allow the stereotypes or symbolic aspects of a thing become the thing itself. We should unpack the symbol but not imagine that takes the place of reality.

Home run! It's wrongheaded for adults (in this case) to project their meanings on the symbols of others. Hand gestures, Trump hats, chants, these symbols all mean something to the individual. That doesn't mean that the symbols mean what WE mean by them. We can say that perception is reality, however that's one side of the interpretation of what we see in the video. What the students, Native Americans, and Black Israelites intended in response to each other is the only reality that matters.

And we don't know precisely what those responses were intended to convey nor do we know how those meanings were interpreted by the receivers and how that influenced the behavior of all three groups and the individuals within the groups.

With regard to adults projecting their meanings of the symbols of others. An adult might pick up a shoe and put it on their feet. A shoe is what you wear on your feet. The 4 year old picks up the shoe puts it to their ear and makes a call to mom.

We can't fully define what the abstract symbol means unless we are the ones using the symbol to transmit meaning.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Jersey Girl »

honor consider aggregates and how they formed, dispersed, and formed again during the event. Did the symbols and symbolic meanings change during the continuous reorganization of the aggregates? When the individuals that make up the aggregate change composition, shouldn't we consider the possibility that the symbolism they employed also changed meaning?

How can we determine what the intentions and motivations behind the behaviors and use of symbols really were?

Because we know what they mean to us when we choose or decline to use them?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Themis wrote:
Ceeboo wrote:
While your advice is fantastically profound and wise (and so desperately needed), I'm not very confident it will even be considered.


Even though you are posting in a thread where most did consider it. You might want to look in the mirror to see who is the real fool. :razz:


Nowhere in his post did he confine his comments to the limitations of this thread nor did I.

Who's the fool now, buddy?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Kevin Graham »

honorentheos wrote:Let's go to just moments before the face off, Kevin. Here's the stamped link:

https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs?t=1021

First, tell me how you timestamp these videos. That's very useful.

honorentheos wrote:But it isn't the case that the context shows the kid should have moved out of Philips' way because he was trying to go past him.

Sure it is. He was heading right towards him and Sandmann was looking right at him the whole time. Every other kid standing beside or behind Sandmann backed away to let him pass. They clearly interpreted his movement and probably the movement of those behind him, as an attempt to pass through that way.

honorentheos wrote:Philips was moving up to kids long before that, and this happens to be the instance where the kid and he end up in a stare down.

For about ten seconds he drifted to the side and then veered back and stayed put but then he began to head up the steps which is a pretty good indicator that he's on the move, which is probably why everyone made way for him. Except for you know who. He stepped up to him and they were at the same level and he still just stood there.

honorentheos wrote:It's bananas to argue that the kid was making a lone decision to not let Philips pass out of disrespect to an older gentleman trying to just walk on by.

He was the only kid that did, so why is it bananas?

honorentheos wrote:Hell, there's another guy with a drum to Philips' right also drumming and not trying move up the stairs when it's clear he could do so if he wanted.

They were behind Phillips the entire time, they're sticking together and letting him decide which direction to go. That's consistent throughout the entire 15 minute footage.

honorentheos wrote:Frankly, I don't take issue with having that kind of response to someone who I would have interpreted as being confrontation with my friends in all honesty. At that age, I'd still say it's likely I'd have had a response in the realm of not backing down. It's just not right to argue he did something wrong. And certainly not right to ignore the fact he and the others are kids being engaged by adults.

I disagree. If he were the only kid there he would have backed away. But he was engaged in a mob mentality just as the woman said. You can even hear one of his buddies egg him on saying "Be Strong" after 2 minutes of staredown. His effort not to blink was obvious to me, which is typical of someone engaging in some kind of contest. He was the center of attention in front of a dozen cameras and he was enjoying the moment until about the third minute.
_Themis
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Themis »

Jersey Girl wrote:Nowhere in his post did he confine his comments to the limitations of this thread nor did I.

Who's the fool now, buddy?


Possibly you since nowhere in my post did I make that claim. :redface:
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_Themis
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Themis »

I have to wonder why, if everyone else was moving out of the way, the man with the drum was blocked by one little kid. :confused:
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Covington Kids Exonerated from Wrong-doing

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Themis wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Nowhere in his post did he confine his comments to the limitations of this thread nor did I.

Who's the fool now, buddy?


Possibly you since nowhere in my post did I make that claim. :redface:


B to the S, Themis. B to the S. :lol:

Even though you are posting in a thread where most did consider it. You might want to look in the mirror to see who is the real fool.


The thread is one miniscule representation of the bias that people cast on the incident.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
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