Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I should note the cartoon above does make a good point. The kid who blew x-amouunt on a L.A. degree could've most likely achieved the same result by using the little computer in his hand and reading Wikipedia. A little discipline and curiosity will teach the average man as much as the kid who has a worthless piece of paper and a sense of privilege along with a mountain of debt.
- Doc
I like how clean cut and white the laborer guy is. Obviously of superior genetic stock. Funny that a guy that conservative looking would be in a union. Most of the union dudes I know look like the guy on the "left"--tattooed and pierced and shaved heads or ponytails.
The last time I was a member of a union was the USWA at EIMCO. But I have to tell you how it went, Doc. When I arrived on the floor, the union steward took me aside and pointed to this old guy at one station of a conveyor belt for taking the burrs off of cast mining equipment parts. The steward said, "That guy sets the pace. You don't go any faster than him." I watched that guy. I swear to God I saw him drooling at one point. I went at half or third speed so that I wouldn't overload him. I lasted less than a month. I found a job as a janitor on graveyard and was happier and more productive. It also worked out with my schedule for....going to school. The only reason I'm here and typing is because I didn't stay with that union job. I tried for more. I'm not sorry.
People with only undergraduate degrees in philosophy currently average around a little over 80k a year. It's one of the highest paying college degrees you can get on average. The spread is greater than some fields, but the earning outlook for the degree isn't bleak.
Philosophy majors don't necessarily get jobs in philosophy, though some do, but it's a sought after degree in a variety of fields. Turns out that being good at thinking is useful.
I guess I don't understand the purpose of pitting liberal arts majors against STEM people. It's a silly competition. I've benefited greatly by what I've learned in both areas. I think of human knowledge as a sort of mosaic that encompasses all of these different perspectives and expressions. Why would we want to limit that?
Regarding the idea that a philosophy degree is worthless because you can get the same information from wikipedia - sort of an update an Will Hunting bragging that a Harvard education can be achieved with a few late charges from your local library - it does seem curious that almost no one is walking around with philosophy major level knowledge of philosophy then, doesn't it? Like any field, autodidacts exist. It's possible to be self-taught. And even more people can get approximate, but not quite college-major level knowledge of topics and subtopics in a field of interest. But that doesn't happen often because that takes a level of intelligence/talent and dedication (or obsessive interest) people frequently do not posses.
People normally need to dedicate themselves in a more formal manner to achieve higher learning. And if they want credibility, they generally need a trustworthy system to vouch for them. Hence the existence of colleges.
Philosophy is the very first field I think of when I think of subjects people feel absolute confidence in having opinions on while not having a basic understanding of the subjects they are opining on. You don't see this in, say, tax law, but it doesn't take much for an ignorant person to think they have well-thought out opinions on free will or whatever.
If only people spent a little more time reading wikipedia.
EAllusion wrote:Philosophy majors don't necessarily get jobs in philosophy, though some do, but it's a sought after degree in a variety of fields. Turns out that being good at thinking is useful.
Yup. I knew a philosophy graduate who went on to a successful career in the frozen food industry, and invented a major ice-cream based dessert that is still an important contributor to their profits. In a good philosophy faculty you get trained to think, reason and argue validly and clearly - and (unless you are a genius) you are unlikely to learn that without being trained and nurtured by intelligent and highly experienced teachers. Much more is required than just reading stuff. It's hard work.
If you visit the website of the Theology faculty of good universities you will also see that their graduates enter a number of excellent career paths apart from the ordained ministry.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Yep. I too know outliers in virtually every industry on this planet. Cool vague anecdotes! Considering in the US we have nearly a trillion dollars of student debt, perhaps we need less philosophers inventing ice cream and more electricians wiring our homes?
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
EAllusion wrote:Philosophy majors don't necessarily get jobs in philosophy, though some do, but it's a sought after degree in a variety of fields. Turns out that being good at thinking is useful.
Yup. I knew a philosophy graduate who went on to a successful career in the frozen food industry, and invented a major ice-cream based dessert that is still an important contributor to their profits. In a good philosophy faculty you get trained to think, reason and argue validly and clearly - and (unless you are a genius) you are unlikely to learn that without being trained and nurtured by intelligent and highly experienced teachers. Much more is required than just reading stuff. It's hard work.
If you visit the website of the Theology faculty of good universities you will also see that their graduates enter a number of excellent career paths apart from the ordained ministry.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: I too know outliers in virtually every industry on this planet. Cool vague anecdotes!
My statement about the employability of philosophy graduates was not based on the experience of a single person. But let's stick with the harder case of theology. Here is some actual data.
Thank you for your interest in the students and alumni/ae of Yale University Divinity School. Every May, Yale University confers approximately 120 degrees to its Divinity School graduates. These men and women earn the Master of Divinity, Master of Arts in Religion and Master of Sacred Theology degrees.
Yale Divinity School’s graduates utilize their theological education in a wide variety of professions, especially the following:
Lay and ordained pastoral ministries in and of the churches. Education, in both public and private K-12 institutions Higher education administration, ministries, research and teaching Business Management in non-profit enterprises and the private sector Administrative positions in a wide variety of venues Community development, advocacy, and social justice work Arts, arts management Communications, editing and publishing
Here's another fairly random example, from Columbia's careers page for philosophy majors:
I'm only stating what people with actual contact with people doing philosophy at good universities already know very well. If that does not persuade DrC, well, the sky certainly isn't going to fall as a result, and I'm not going to lose any sleep about it.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Well, one of the founders of Ben and Jerry's ice cream married a PhD. It's synergy! I see Chap has double scooped down on his inanity...
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
