Can we agree that Trump is clinically a narcissist?

[_canpakes]

Yes.

[_Jersey Girl]

I think your point that his condition is not his fault is a good one. A therapist once told me that narcissists are extremely difficult to treat because they can’t see that there is anything wrong with their behavior. Trump cannot be other than who he is because he literally cannot imagine how he appears to anyone other than himself.

In your view, should or could NPD be used as a defense in cases of alleged criminal activity?

[_Res Ipsa]

I think your point that his condition is not his fault is a good one. A therapist once told me that narcissists are extremely difficult to treat because they can’t see that there is anything wrong with their behavior. Trump cannot be other than who he is because he literally cannot imagine how he appears to anyone other than himself.

In your view, should or could NPD be used as a defense in cases of alleged criminal activity?

The “insanity defense” varies from state to state. I had to do a survey of them years ago to prepare a brief. I don’t think NPD would qualify for any of them. Nor would it fit with the line of dimisished capacity cases. I can’t recall ever reading of an attempt to use NPD as a defense.

Generally, when mental incapacity is a defense, the consequence is commitment to an institution until the condition is improved to the point that the person can be safely returned to society. From what I understand about folks with NPD, that would be a life sentence for most. To me, that argues for not allowing NPD as a defense. Similarly, the fact that a person with NPD can understand what the law requires and has the capacity to comply suggests to me that NPD should not be a defense.

in my opinion, the legal principles in this area lag far behind our understanding of psychology. They don’t interface well with the diagnostic categories used by mental health professionals.

[_MeDotOrg]

I think your point that his condition is not his fault is a good one. A therapist once told me that narcissists are extremely difficult to treat because they can’t see that there is anything wrong with their behavior. Trump cannot be other than who he is because he literally cannot imagine how he appears to anyone other than himself.

When people kept thinking Trump would do a turn and become more Presidential, I think it was because they genuinely did not understand (and some still do not understand) the nature of his narcissism, functioning as a giant filter between him and the outside world. On August 18, 2018, Donald Trump gave himself an A+ grade for his first 2 years as President.

I challenge anyone on the board to name another President who would give himself an A+ after 2 years. The closest was William Henry Harrison, who died of typhoid fever after 31 days in office. Seriously, any human being with the smallest sense of humility who could not learn from their first 2 years in office is truly a person incapable of learning, period.

Take the question out of the abstract: Imagine anyone you know, anyone in American history who, after 2 years in the Presidency, would give themselves an A+. That person is probably not someone you'd want in the White House.

Between Donald Trump and reality is his narcissism, and it is next to impossible for a man of his age, threatened with the loss of everything he has worked for, fought for, and ultimately lied and cheated for, to face up the consequences of his life.

[_Res Ipsa]

by the way, Jersey Girl, the US Supreme Court will hear a case this term that for the first time addresses the issue of whether some type of "insanity defense" is constitutionally required.

[_Jersey Girl]

by the way, Jersey Girl, the US Supreme Court will hear a case this term that for the first time addresses the issue of whether some type of "insanity defense" is constitutionally required.

Ok, cool. Here's another question and I promise I'm not trying to swerve off topic.

If someone is sentenced on a murder charge that involved a plea deal, and later, they are found to have NPD OR start making remarks to the effect that some outside force controlled them...can they appeal the conviction IF they weren't given a psych eval prior to sentencing?

I'm following a couple of cases. The above is what I see happening in the behavior right now of one who is in prison for life.

And...if they can appeal the case, can the person be retried in a death penalty case?

I know I should start another thread but I don't think anyone here cares about the cases I'm following. I'm trying to figure out if one of these guys is currently trying to wiggle out of his sentence.

[_Res Ipsa]

by the way, Jersey Girl, the US Supreme Court will hear a case this term that for the first time addresses the issue of whether some type of "insanity defense" is constitutionally required.

Ok, cool. Here's another question and I promise I'm not trying to swerve off topic.

If someone is sentenced on a murder charge that involved a plea deal, and later, they are found to have NPD OR start making remarks to the effect that some outside force controlled them...can they appeal the conviction IF they weren't given a psych eval prior to sentencing?

I'm following a couple of cases. The above is what I see happening in the behavior right now of one who is in prison for life.

And...if they can appeal the case, can the person be retried in a death penalty case?

I know I should start another thread but I don't think anyone here cares about the cases I'm following. I'm trying to figure out if one of these guys is currently trying to wiggle out of his sentence.

If there was a plea deal, then once a sentence was imposed, I think the convicted person would have to prove ineffective assistance of counsel. That's a pretty tough burden to meet, but it could be done on appeal. If the plea deal was before trial, then there would be no problem trying the case. If there was a trial to a verdict before the plea, then I think the verdict would simply be reinstated.

[_Jersey Girl]

If there was a plea deal, then once a sentence was imposed, I think the convicted person would have to prove ineffective assistance of counsel. That's a pretty tough burden to meet, but it could be done on appeal. If the plea deal was before trial, then there would be no problem trying the case. If there was a trial to a verdict before the plea, then I think the verdict would simply be reinstated.

There was a plea deal to avoid trial and likely the death penalty.

I see hints in this person's current comments that he is leaning towards some outside force made me do it and didn't have the ability to stop himself, which IF he didn't receive a psych eval going in and IF he has the capacity to plot/plan ahead, makes me think that he MIGHT be putting out there the seeds of psychological evidence that might be considered in an appeal. Of course, we can't know unless and until he files for appeal.

Maybe he thinks he can get out of it somehow but he's already confessed and rotting in prison.

I've read that it's possible to appeal after a plea agreement. I wanted to know what you thought about it.

[_Res Ipsa]

I think it would be very difficult for the convicted guy to succeed. He would, in essence, need to show convincing evidence that he would have succeeded on an “insanity defense” and that his lawyer essentially committed malpractice by not raising the defense and having an evaluation conducted. If the first time he started talking about irresistible impulse was after sentencing, I think he’ll have a very tough time.

I do think your suspicions about what he’s up to makes sense, especially if he’s a manipulative person.

[_EAllusion]

The “insanity defense” varies from state to state. I had to do a survey of them years ago to prepare a brief. I don’t think NPD would qualify for any of them. Nor would it fit with the line of dimisished capacity cases. I can’t recall ever reading of an attempt to use NPD as a defense.

Generally, when mental incapacity is a defense, the consequence is commitment to an institution until the condition is improved to the point that the person can be safely returned to society. From what I understand about folks with NPD, that would be a life sentence for most. To me, that argues for not allowing NPD as a defense. Similarly, the fact that a person with NPD can understand what the law requires and has the capacity to comply suggests to me that NPD should not be a defense.

in my opinion, the legal principles in this area lag far behind our understanding of psychology. They don’t interface well with the diagnostic categories used by mental health professionals.

It's been 20 years since I was required to study the insanity defense, but the upshot is I once studied the insanity defense in college coursework for a psych class. My impression has always been that the law is behind philosophy, not psychology. The law seems to come from a political process controlled by people with naïve views on moral responsibility and determinism. Of the used insanity defense standards I recall, The Model Penal Code Test is easily the best and the Durham Rule is the worst.

The Durham Rule is the only one I can think of where NPD could plausibly be argued as a basis for defense, and even then, probably not. I'd be surprised if it's ever actually been successfully used, but wealthy defendants get away with a lot, so you never know. The issue there is that all behavior is ultimately predetermined by psychological causes beyond a person's control. The extent to which psychology can or can't label dysfunctional behavior as part of a mental disorder speaks to the limits of psychological knowledge. If psychology were sufficiently advanced, all criminal acts could be described in terms of being a byproduct of "mental defect" because abnormal psych conventionally thinks of mental defects in terms of mental conditions that produce thoughts or behavior that cause personal distress or significantly interfere with a person's functioning in society. Criminal acts that have gone to trial by their nature do that. Whether or not there is a clinical diagnosis for any given psychological basis for dysfunctional behavior is just a matter of how fine-grained clinical psychology has gotten.