Next time some one wants to tell you evolution isn't real

[_Morley]

humility and gratitude are virtues to you because of western Christian indoctrination in your life, culture, and education

You've got to be kidding me. You can't believe this.

[_EAllusion]

humility and gratitude are virtues to you because of western Christian indoctrination in your life, culture, and education.

Yes, humility and gratitude as virtues do not and did not exist outside of (western) Christian cultures.

[_Kevin Graham]

Yes, humility and gratitude as virtues do not and did not exist outside of (western) Christian cultures.

This is Dinesh Souza level stupidity.

[_EAllusion]

I think there are a few ways that evolutionary theory threatens people's belief in God while remaining technically consistent with it.

1) One of the most popular ways people think their belief in God is justified is the teleological argument. While that reasoning fails apart from the existence of evolutionary theory, evolution tends to give people a really compelling basis to reject that reasoning. Arguments from ignorance are especially bad when the ignorance doesn't even have to be the case.

2) People's specific religious beliefs are inconsistent with evolutionary theory being correct. Once they are separated from their specific religious worldview, belief in other religions, even ones relatively close to their current beliefs, seems less compelling.

3) Evolution provides a lot of very compelling examples of the argument from evil. You don't need evolution to understand the argument evil. It's totally unnecessary. But, for whatever reason, it really hits with some people in the context of evolution. Arguments to "bad design" don't work as refutations of generic design arguments, but they do make for compelling illustrations of arguments from evil. Once people understand the rube goldberg nature of evolutionary adaptation and the sub-optimal outcomes it creates from the perspective of absolute benevolence, people ask themselves questions like "what kind of designer would do this?" with the answer being, "One quite unlike the God I believe in."

[_Morley]

humility and gratitude are virtues to you because of western Christian indoctrination in your life, culture, and education

I'll admit that I'm both amazed and disgusted at this statement. But perhaps I'm misinterpreting. Please elaborate, subgenius.

[_Jersey Girl]

Hey Cam this isn't a response to your reply. You're not going to get a reply to that until I feel like I've had time to give it a good think. But, I will eventually reply to it.

I want to state my motivations. I'm never in a debate with Atheists over the existence of God. My thinking being that if God exists, and according to my Christian teaching and how I live Christianity, God is going to reveal him/her/itself to a person and doesn't need me to do it.

Part of this has to do with finding out how you (or other atheists) think about things and developing further my own self awareness. For example, I think there may be a way to think about humility and gratitude that has nothing to do with a belief in a higher power but since I'm oriented to God belief, I have no experience with it and want to hear how atheists think and see the world. I'll try to work some of this into the reply that I make to your post above.

It's a little difficult to work through some of that on this board because while I've seen many a "no God needed" post over the years, most of you started out as God believers and so you presumably started right about where I did. If that makes sense...

I picked you because your post opened the door and the few times I have posed questions to you regarding belief or non-belief, your replies have always resulted in a thoughtful exchange of ideas and not a debate.

So that's why I replied with inquiry to your post!

[_SPG]

Cropping your post because I want to focus just on this one piece.

The universe itself is enough to feel humility, gratitude, and now that we know better, a sense of stewardship.

I'm Doctor CamNC4Me. And I'm a grateful atheist.

- Doc

I think that the gratitude (or thankfulness) implies a relationship. Those are inner qualities or emotions that we typically express via outward actions or words. So how do you express your gratitude for all the things in the Universe or do you feel any need to express what you feel via your actions at all? If you express them in words, who is the listener?

I think this is a wonderful point. If you are grateful for something, thankful, then you are usually grateful to a someone or a something thing.

If nothing else, gratitude communicates to your own brain, which will in turn creates more pathways to please you.

[_Gunnar]

Hey Gunnar

Also, in my mind, if you were to consider what the evolutionary process would have had to be for something like sexual reproduction, your head just might explode. But perhaps yours wouldn't? Maybe you take the position of certainty in these things? Either way, I don't have s problem if you take such a position, I just don't share said position.

Ceeboo, the evolution of sex is not nearly as farfetched as you seem to think it is.

I have no issues with you sharing your opinion with me that the evolutionary processes involved in sexual reproduction is not nearly as far-fetched as I think it is. But to be clear with you, I don't think it's just far-fetched, I think it's completely impossible (preposterous in fact). The good news: We need to agree. making our positions clear - even if said positions differ - seem more valuable, at least in my opinion.

I fail to understand how you can still hold to the position that the evolution of sexual reproduction is utterly preposterous after viewing the links I provided. Did you actually watch those videos? It doesn't seem like you did, or that you made any honest attempt to understand them if you did.

Sexual reproduction is an all or none event.(Would you agree with this?)

Based on the videos I provided, I definitely would not agree with that. This again reinforces my doubt that you actually watched them or tried to honestly understand what they were saying.

Would you say that one multi-cellular animal (A male) grew an appendage after millions of years, then decided to insert it into a fold in another multi-cellular animal (A female) that didn’t possess the appendage just to see what would happen?

This would be a preposterous interpretation of what was presented in those videos. There need not have been any conscious or deliberate decision or intention involved for this to have happened occasionally; just as there is almost certainly no conscious intention involved when genetic material is occasionally exchanged between bacteria in close contact with each other, sometimes even between bacteria of different species, which is known to happen.

could perfectly matched male and female sexual organs evolve in separate individuals of a species?

Again, did you actually watch those videos? They made clear that perfectly matched male and female sexual organs were not an absolute requirement for successful reproduction to occur, though they would obviously increase the odds. Certainly there would be random variations in the closeness of the match, and the more closely matched variations would have a greater rate of success and would naturally become predominant over time.

What microsteps and/or evolutionary processes could possibly be at play that would account for male/female sexual reproduction to occur? Any explanation of gradually evolving sexuality would be preposterous. The mutations and NS of one gender would have to “know” what mutations and NS were taking place for the other gender. And since there is no intelligence involved, according to most evolutionists, this scenario is not possible.

As far as I can tell, these are flat, unsupported assertions on your part with no support other than your desperation to find any excuse you can to avoid having to alter what you desperately would rather believe.

The same is true for cell mitosis (cell splitting for reproduction) - Mitosis is an all or none event. Cells cannot split .00001, then .00002…….(Would you agree?) Mitosis cannot evolve in small steps. Period. It’s a split or no split deal. The other major problem is the fact that for evolution to occur, cells must go through mitosis so that traits and mutations can be passed on the future generations and be improved upon. In other words, mitosis can’t evolve unless there is mitosis!

Evidence presented in the videos I linked you to indicates otherwise.

The fertilization of the female egg by a sperm is also all-or-none. So is copulation. (Would you agree?)

No, I don't agree. Again, I have to wonder if you bothered to look at the links I provided. In particular, they pointed out that pregnancy has been known to occur even in humans by sperm spraying or falling only on a woman's external genitalia, with no actual copulation involved. This is rare, but it does sometimes happen. Sperm can be remarkably resilient and determined to reach its goal if it gets close enough to find its way to the vaginal opening.

[Guest]

Part of this has to do with finding out how you (or other atheists) think about things and developing further my own self awareness. For example, I think there may be a way to think about humility and gratitude that has nothing to do with a belief in a higher power but since I'm oriented to God belief, I have no experience with it and want to hear how atheists think and see the world. I'll try to work some of this into the reply that I make to your post above.

I really admire and appreciate your perception on this point. I think you would agree with me that our mutual friend, the scientist Craig Criddle, though an atheist, is one of the humblest, most compassionate and appreciative people on earth. We both have learned much from him, and despite his own great learning and intelligence, he acknowledges and appreciates insight he has gained even from us.

[_Gunnar]

The bottom line for me on this issue is that evidence for evolution is strong enough to convince me that whether or not there is a God, evolution is almost certainly a fact. I don't claim to know with certainty whether or not there is any such thing as God, but I am far more confident that evolution works as claimed than I am that belief in God works. There has been far too much nonsense, injustice and atrocity perpetrated in the name of God and religion through the ages for me to have any confidence in religion beyond the obvious wisdom and benefits of striving to treat others as one would like to be treated, which is the one thing on which all respectable religions seem to agree. I don't need belief in God to figure that out for myself.