Candace Owens Congressional Testimony (New PragerU video)

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_SPG
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Re: Candace Owens Congressional Testimony (New PragerU video

Post by _SPG »

Gunnar wrote:As I see it, doc, the virulent hate, racism and bigotry is coming almost exclusively from the hard right, conservative Trump supporters on this board, and they deserve every bit of the shame that is heaped upon them!

Hate is part of human defensive. It's a rejection of a thing, person, or ideal. And I admit, I hate some of the left's ideals, but I don't hate the people. Some piss me off more than others, but I know we're all doing the best we can.

But I straight up agree with Doc on this, (which isn't usually the case.)

I see videos of white kids talking about killing themselves because they are white. They are so ashamed of who they are, they cannot stand themselves. People willingly get up and debase themselves and their race because of their shame. It isn't right. We all have a lot to be ashamed of, but we shouldn't be ashamed of our race. That people want to promote that sort of thing, pisses me off.

If we are God's children, or just stupid monkeys, the gene pool lottery put some of us on the more dominate side of things. While I am willing to tame my aggressive nature, I will not bow in shame to anyone.

But Candace, bless her heart, is saying the same thing. Stopped be ashamed of who you are. Stop taking handouts from people trying to convince you that you are not strong enough to cut it on your own.

From my point of view, all that hate you see, is staged for your entertainment. If you ask people like me and Doc (I hope I can include Doc) we don't hate people for their race. We never have. But just like I might be pissed if my child continued to take money from me without trying to be gain self-sufficiency, I can get pissed a fellow citizens that think I owe them a living.

Granted, I know that many blacks are not this way, but Democrats are literally pushing the idea that they are victims and need to be paid for wrongs done, when, according to history, Democrats are the ones that did the wrongs. Still doing wrongs, in fact. Planned Parenthood is killing almost 1M unborn children a year. Most of them are children of color. That is the reason Planned Parenthood was created, to keep the blacks from multiplying.

The KKK, was the military arm of the Democratic Party after they lost the Civil War. Their main purpose was to influence elections and stop blacks from taking office. In the 1940's, when a live lynching was broadcasted on TV and the Klan went from almost 4 million democrats to almost nothing. After that, the KKK was more about image. An image of hate. So KKK people would dress up and appear at the speeches of Republican politicians, in full support. This, of course, killed the support for that politician. And the democrats got the bright idea that if they could make the Republicans look bad enough, they could convince both white people and black to join them.

So, my thought to this is, show me the real hate. Not the occasional racist term, that was twisted enough to look bad, but the hateful actions. Like murdering their unborn, or welcoming them to America but leave them on voting plantations, or promising them better education but leaving them to die, or promising them equality but continue to promote them as victims.

Showing up with a sign that says, "I hate black people" means about as much as a sign that says "I love Jesus." They are just words. Look at the actions, the results. Was Obama fueling the riots in Ferguson an act of love, or glorifying wrong doing?

Thanks Doc for trying to explain my position. I think you got it right.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_canpakes
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Re: Candace Owens Congressional Testimony (New PragerU video

Post by _canpakes »

SPG wrote:Thanks Doc for trying to explain my position. I think you got it right.

Neither Doc nor yourself has explained your "position", especially the parts that I excerpted above. You've only presented some bizarrely racist assertions about black folks being unable to think for themselves in the presence of assistance programs open to all.

If that's what Candace - and yourself - want to assert, then I can guarantee you that those opinions are right down there with the worst of assumptions about race and society, and layered atop a willful ignorance of history and reality.
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_honorentheos
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Re: Candace Owens Congressional Testimony (New PragerU video

Post by _honorentheos »

SPG wrote:You ever hear that phrase, the more outrageous the truth, more likely people will believe its a lie?

No, but I've heard it's opposite - the outrageous lie repeated will be believed. That originated with Hitler, by the way.

I can see that where you and I get crossed in on a subset of Item D.

No. Where you and I get crosswise is much more fundamental than that.

Democracy, small "d" democracy, originates out of the enlightenment view that inherent to all humanity is potential to achieve whatever it is that is one's own potential that is not defined by one's birth station. At the time, one's ability to achieve one's potential was largely constrained by the lottery of birth. If a person was born into a wealthy, aristocratic family, one had much more access to education, leisure, and resources that one could learn from to become a great scientist, explorer, diplomat, philosopher, or whathaveyou. But the majority of people were born into labor.

Much of what we take for granted in our world today is really the democratization of everything from education to infrastructure to access to open spaces and periods of leisure where we can explore our interests and uncover our potential in ways that are almost unprecedented in the long view of human history.

But this is constantly under pressure as it seems the natural order of humanity is towards hierarchy and stratification, with wealth always accumulating into fewer and fewer hands much like a game of Texas Hold 'em moves towards fewer and fewer players ending up with more and more of the pot. And, even though new players may take a seat at the table, unless they are get very lucky early on, the facts of the game make it such that a person with a lot of money can play in such a way that they force other players with less money out.

So when Candice complains of the items in B, I agree with her. There are systemic challenges to different groups of people in the United States that affects their ability to realize their potential and are decided undemocratic. And, they work over the long term to keep people down rather than help them get onto a level playing field where they are playing the same game with the same rules as those who take for granted that what they experience is what everyone else experiences. Part of what is behind the outrage over the current college admissions scandal is the overt expression of this underlying fact - people with wealth and privileges unavailable to everyone else aren't playing by the same rules. In this case, it was illegal and they got caught. But we don't bat an eye over the fact those same kids also went to better schools and could afford tutors, didn't have to work or worry about their neighborhood or take care of a sibling because one of their parents was in jail and the other was suffering from addiction or worse.

You think that this narrative that the system is holding people back by discouraging them from striving is a plot against the people being most affected by it, rather than a legitimate claim that there are systemic issues that affect people's access to the full services of our democracy. I think YOU are being suckered into believing this to get your vote to sustain this continued move to unbalance the democratic ideals of the nation. It's ironic that I think you and those like you are the victims of the very thing you are blaming the Democratic party of doing to minorities. Conservatives are doing this very thing to the working class, aided by conservative talk radio and Fox News and they have been very effective at it. So when we see an old person holding a sign against Obamacare while also demanding government keep its hands off of his Medicare, it is evidence of how effective that campaign has been. When you and ceebs come on here sharing the Prager U agenda, it illustrates again how effective this campaign has been. When Trump got elected as a shady "billionaire" because he promised to look out for the working class and made not-very-subtle appeals to fear and concern against multicultural pluralism, it's a sign of how effective that campaign has been.

This Candice Owens thing is ironic for how much her claims align with how YOU are being treated by conservatives.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Candace Owens Congressional Testimony (New PragerU video

Post by _Kevin Graham »

SPG wrote:I see videos of white kids talking about killing themselves because they are white. They are so ashamed of who they are, they cannot stand themselves.


Feel free to share just one of these videos.

People willingly get up and debase themselves and their race because of their shame. It isn't right. We all have a lot to be ashamed of, but we shouldn't be ashamed of our race. That people want to promote that sort of thing, pisses me off.


That's a pretty dumb statement, but you're the same guy who boasts about being self-educated and thinks education is a Liberal hoax.

But Candace, bless her heart, is saying the same thing.


Candace is human garbage because she is lying for attention and she spreads misinformation while riling up the racists on the Right. She is basically saying the stupid crap they've been saying for decades but you think it has credibility simply because she's black. Stupidity doesn't discriminate. It attacks white and black just the same.

From my point of view, all that hate you see, is staged for your entertainment.


Yes, and as we already found out, your point of view is based on ignorance. It isn't based on anything tangible other than your need to believe. But you're a Mormon, who believes black people are black because they sinned in the preexistence, so little surprise here.

If you ask people like me and Doc (I hope I can include Doc) we don't hate people for their race. We never have. But just like I might pissed if my child continued to take money from without trying to be gain self-sufficiency, I can get pissed a fellow citizens that think I owe them a living.


What you just said is racism by constantly insinuating that black people don't try to be self sufficient. It is one of the oldest racist canards there is. But you don't hate them for being black, you hate them for not being as good as people who just happen to be white. Never mind the fact that Republican states are the biggest welfare states in the union. Never mind that your own Church provides welfare to hundreds of thousands of white Mormons who are too damned lazy to get off their asses and pull themselves up from their own bootstraps.

Granted, I know that many blacks are not this way,


Let me guess, some are fine people? You're idiotic rant pretending not to be racist sounds almost identical to Trump's anti-Mexican rant. "Some" are good people ... maybe.... but you assert as if a fact that the majority are just lazy moochers. Blaming it on the Democrat party doesn't make this any less racist.

Planned Parenthood is killing almost 1M unborn children a year. Most of them are children of color. That is the reason Planned Parenthood was created, to keep the blacks from multiplying.


Another stupid damned comment. You're just human garbage like Candace. I'm proud to be an enemy of your pathetic God that allows millions of "babies" to die because of natural miscarriages.

The KKK, was the military arm of the Democratic Party are they lost the Civil War.


You're just repeating old crap that has already been addressed. The fact that you don't want to own up to the southern strategy is irrelevant. As Lee Atwater admitted, the Republicans strategy was to appeal to the racists in the South which is how those traditional Blue states became Red. This is what he said:

You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.”
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Re: Candace Owens Congressional Testimony (New PragerU video

Post by _Gunnar »

SPG, there is so much wrong in your last last post that I hardly know where to start, so I will leave that to someone more articulate or with greater patience than I. What you got most egregiously wrong though was that "Planned Parenthood was created, to keep the blacks from multiplying." I doubt that Doc Cam would agree with that one any more than I do, based on what I know of his previous posting history. As far as I can tell, he is too well versed in both history and science too subscribe to that meme. Nor, I strongly suspect, is that the only thing in that post that Doc would disagree with or find offensive. I doubt he is that ignorant or historically illiterate.

ETA: I see, after I wrote the above, some have already stepped up to the plate, for which I am thankful.
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Re: Candace Owens Congressional Testimony (New PragerU video

Post by _SPG »

canpakes wrote:
SPG wrote:Thanks Doc for trying to explain my position. I think you got it right.

Neither Doc nor yourself has explained your "position", especially the parts that I excerpted above. You've only presented some bizarrely racist assertions about black folks being unable to think for themselves in the presence of assistance programs open to all.

If that's what Candace - and yourself - want to assert, then I can guarantee you that those opinions are right down there with the worst of assumptions about race and society, and layered atop a willful ignorance of history and reality.


You cannot guarantee anything. She is winning. People are seeing it. The left is desperately trying to discredit her. And I never implied that blacks cannot think for themselves, anymore than I implied that you cannot think for yourself. But, we all tend to process that information in front of it. Like, "Hey, the KKK showed up at a Republican rally, they must be racist." Who wouldn't think that? If you say, "Yeah, but those were actors pretending to support the Republicans" they say, "I believe what I see."

I mean, seriously, if they were actually Republicans, are they so stupid as to NOT know their presence wouldn't scare voters away?

Gunnar wrote:SPG, there is so much wrong in that last post that I hardly know where to start, so I will leave that to someone more articulate or with greater patience than I. What you got most egregiously wrong thought was that "Planned Parenthood was created, to keep the blacks from multiplying." I doubt that Doc Cam would agree with that one any more than I do, based on what I know of his previous posting history. As far as I can tell, he is too well versed in both history and science too subscribe to that meme. Nor, I suspect, is that the only thing in that post that Doc would disagree with or find offensive.


Yeah, Yeah, I get it. I'm so wrong you don't know how to articulate or define, or even point to evidence to prove me wrong. I'm sure Margaret Singer was just trying to culture a favor by sterilizing woman against their willing. Rumor has it, Hitler got his ideas of cleansing Germany from her work.
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Re: Candace Owens Congressional Testimony (New PragerU video

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Hey Conservatives, Candace Owens Is Fraudulent Trash Who Is Just Following The Money

Candace Owens is doing her best to become the next Omarosa. However, even Owens’ antics seem too extreme for the former White House staffer. Nonetheless, conservatives appear to be falling for her stunts, which has resulted in fame for the 29-year-old and a platform for her to spit her hate from. That said, Owens is a fraud and we have receipts.

Lawsuit With the NAACP

Owens now calls the NAACP “one of the worst groups for Black people,” even though the organization helped her win a racial discrimination lawsuit. In 2007, she accused some white boys of racially harassing and threatening to kill her. Owens claimed the boys were the son of then-Stamford Mayor Dannel Malloy, Connecticut’s former governor. Because of the NAACP, Owens’ family received a settlement of $37,500 from Stamford Public Schools.

Scot X. Esdaile, the Connecticut NAACP president who helped Owens with her lawsuit, was shocked to hear she had become a conservative. Esdaile told Mic, “We’re very saddened and disappointed in her. It seems to me that she’s now trying to play to a different type of demographic.”

He also said, “It’s the same type of thing Clarence Thomas did. [Thomas] reaped all the benefits of affirmative action and then tried to roll over on it. It’s that kind of mentality and disrespect.”

Anti-Trump Website

In May of 2018, BuzzFeed reported that Candace Owens was the CEO of an anti-Trump, liberal-leaning website called Degree180. Owens wrote in 2015 that it was “good news” that the “Republican Tea Party … will eventually die off (peacefully in their sleep, we hope).”

Degree180 also talked about Trump’s penis size and him being racist with an immigrant wife.

The site reportedly shut down by the end of 2016 and Owens magically “came out” as a conservative on YouTube a few months later.

Fox News

By March of 2018, Owens was slithering onto TV stations and finally made it to Fox News. She spit out a line that went viral and made her a darling of pseudo-conservatives. Owens said the National Rifle Association was founded as a civil rights organization that protected Black people from the KKK. Even the Fox News host said, “I’ve never heard that before! That’s so interesting!” She never heard it before, either, because it was a lie.

PolitiFact confirmed she lied or is just willfully ignorant. According to the NRA’s own web site, “Dismayed by the lack of marksmanship shown by their troops, Union veterans Col. William C. Church and Gen. George Wingate formed the National Rifle Association in 1871. The primary goal of the association would be to ‘promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis,’ according to a magazine editorial written by Church.”

However, her fraudulent comment made her a media darling.

Another Lawsuit

Back in January of this year, Owens attacked New York Rep. Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez for being “fiscally irresponsible” because the newly elected congresswoman couldn’t afford an apartment in Washington, D.C. However, reporter Nathan Bernard exposed Owens by posting a lawsuit that showed “she rented a $3,500 apartment, lived there for six months rent-free, then claimed she had gotten ‘toxic mold sickness’ and threatened to sue her landlord to avoid paying rent.”

She allegedly stopped paying rent in September of 2016 and was evicted in January of 2017, which coincides with her “coming out” as a conservative only months later.

As for the mold claims, a legal analyst told Bernard Media, “The obvious question is if the place was so unlivable why stay there 6 months, even rent free? Why not get out of there especially if you can afford an apartment for $3,500? It’s not difficult to identify a toxic mold infestation either. If you started to exhibit symptoms that seemed related to the infestation, why not notify a doctor immediately? Also, why sue a year later after moving out? There are a lot of questions that arise on first glance at this case. She’s going to have a huge burden of proof at trial.”

Social Autopsy

In the spring of 2016, Owens launched an anti-cyberbullying website called Social Autopsy. She reportedly started a Kickstarter campaign to raise $75,000 (she sure likes money she doesn’t have to work for). CTPost.com described the site as a “searchable database of offensive speech found on social media.” Owens wanted to expose people who anonymously harassed others online, which is known as doxing and is a huge no-no among conservatives. She claimed she got pushback from the left, which was allegedly one of the sparks that lit her conservative fire.

However, Quillette.com reported, it was the right who attacked her.

“While Owens portrays herself as a victim of leftist persecution, the fact is that the initial backlash against Social Autopsy came mostly from the ‘cultural libertarian’ opposition to the authoritarian left. YouTube video bloggers Matt Jarbo (“Mundane Matt”) and Chris Maldonado (“Chris Ray Gun”), both strong critics of ‘social justice warriors,’ were among the first to blast the project as a terrible idea. Another early negative report came from none other than Breitbart; it was written by Allum Bokhari, a frequent co-author of the not-yet-disgraced Milo Yiannopoulos and a leading foe of the ‘SJW’ left in digital and tech culture,” the site wrote.

This would make sense because it is clearly people on the right or MAGA crazies who don’t want to be exposed for their hatred. You can hear Owens doing the voiceover for the Social Autopsy video below:

Within only a few years, Owens had two failed internet projects, didn’t pay rent and then somehow became a conservative, landing a job at Turning Point USA. She is now known for outlandish language. She said Hitler only wanted to make Germany “great again.”

After the horrific mail bombs sent to Democrats back in October, she tweeted then deleted, “I’m going to go ahead and state that there is a 0% chance that these ‘suspicious packages’ were sent out by conservatives. The only thing ‘suspicious’ about these packages is their timing. Caravans, fake bomb threats—these leftists are going ALL OUT for midterms.”

Oh, her term Blexit, which got her embarrassed by Kanye West who implied she “used” him, is a slogan that was stolen from the Bank Black movement.

There are true conservatives out there who have been involved in politics for years, but Owens does not appear to be one of them. She is clearly in this for fame, attention and is following the money. Hopefully, someone on the conservative side recognizes this hack for what she is — fraudulent trash.
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Re: Candace Owens Congressional Testimony (New PragerU video

Post by _SPG »

honorentheos wrote:No, but I've heard it's opposite - the outrageous lie repeated will be believed. That originated with Hitler, by the way.

You reworded what I said into what Hitler say, and yes, I know he said that about the lie, but he wasn't only one to express that idea. So no, I wasn't quoting Hitler. But yes, he used that idea that no one would believe was he killing people by the millions because it was just to crazy.

honorentheos wrote:
SPG wrote:I can see that where you and I get crossed in on a subset of Item D.

No. Where you and I get crosswise is much more fundamental than that.

Ok, let's go over this, SPG style.

honorentheos wrote:Democracy, small "d" democracy, originates out of the enlightenment view that inherent to all humanity is potential to achieve whatever it is that is one's own potential that is not defined by one's birth station. At the time, one's ability to achieve one's potential was largely constrained by the lottery of birth. If a person was born into a wealthy, aristocratic family, one had much more access to education, leisure, and resources that one could learn from to become a great scientist, explorer, diplomat, philosopher, or whathaveyou. But the majority of people were born into labor.


Democracy wasn't enlightenment, it was just another form of a rule called, "Might makes right." In the past, a single person could rise to power with their might. Sometimes by the strength of sword, or the cunning of their mind. But "might has always ruled." Democracy is merely a method of ruling where people quickly informed and agree to work together for the sake of straight. It is neither enlightening or right, merely that strongest way. You think that people like democracy because it is fair and just, but it not like that.

So cunning minds know that in order to rule, they need the numbers to be on their side. They often times make bad or false promises to get this. America is a group that has decided that everyone would be treated equal, but it doesn't happen that way. Some get government assistance, some don't. But, below the democracy is an agreement that we will all support the "team" we play on. Some try to create new teams, but they are weak.

Simply put, "Might still makes right." That is the only way we whole our country. Not by moral right, or the kindness of our heart.

honorentheos wrote:Much of what we take for granted in our world today is really the democratization of everything from education to infrastructure to access to open spaces and periods of leisure where we can explore our interests and uncover our potential in ways that are almost unprecedented in the long view of human history.

Again, not from the goodness of our heart, but for the pursuit of power. America is the most powerful country in the world for the mixture of our unity, resources, and knowledge. Not because we are nice and vote on everything.

honorentheos wrote:But this is constantly under pressure as it seems the natural order of humanity is towards hierarchy and stratification, with wealth always accumulating into fewer and fewer hands much like a game of Texas Hold ''em moves towards fewer and fewer players ending up with more and more of the pot. And, even though new players may take a seat at the table, unless they are get very lucky early on, the facts of the game make it such that a person with a lot of money can play in such a way that they force other players with less money out.

In the future, democracy might look different. Votes might be digital, person voted in for one deed, or maybe people are not voted in at all. But what will remain true is that "might makes right." Money is an illusion, it symbol of gratitude to those that help our society. Something might become free because we can afford it, like maybe free power, or free water. But the "power of motivation" created the promise of reward, usually money, will probably always be the best method of growth.

honorentheos wrote:So when Candice complains of the items in B, I agree with her. There are systemic challenges to different groups of people in the United States that affects their ability to realize their potential and are decided undemocratic. And, they work over the long term to keep people down rather than help them get onto a level playing field where they are playing the same game with the same rules as those who take for granted that what they experience is what everyone else experiences. Part of what is behind the outrage over the current college admissions scandal is the overt expression of this underlying fact - people with wealth and privileges unavailable to everyone else aren't playing by the same rules. In this case, it was illegal and they got caught. But we don't bat an eye over the fact those same kids also went to better schools and could afford tutors, didn't have to work or worry about their neighborhood or take care of a sibling because one of their parents was in jail and the other was suffering from addiction or worse.

Mostly, reaching your potential shouldn't be a matter of democratic process. Democratic process can create opportunities for us, but if someone is "expressing" your potential for you, then it isn't true potential. Super stars of Hollywood must play the game, or they lose their status. It isn't "their potential" as much as someone using them as a product to sell. Candace sees that.

honorentheos wrote:You think that this narrative that the system is holding people back by discouraging them from striving is a plot against the people being most affected by it, rather than a legitimate claim that there are systemic issues that affect people's access to the full services of our democracy. I think YOU are being suckered into believing this to get your vote to sustain this continued move to unbalance the democratic ideals of the nation. It's ironic that I think you and those like you are the victims of the very thing you are blaming the Democratic party of doing to minorities. Conservatives are doing this very thing to the working class, aided by conservative talk radio and Fox News and they have been very effective at it. So when we see an old person holding a sign against Obamacare while also demanding government keep its hands off of his Medicare, it is evidence of how effective that campaign has been. When you and ceebs come on here sharing the Prager U agenda, it illustrates again how effective this campaign has been. When Trump got elected as a shady "billionaire" because he promised to look out for the working class and made not-very-subtle appeals to fear and concern against multicultural pluralism, it's a sign of how effective that campaign has been.

This Candice Owens thing is ironic for how much her claims align with how YOU are being treated by conservatives.

Oh, there are issues. But they aren't "natural issues." They are artificial issues, created by people trying to influence and utilize the "might" of the people. Nothing so clean as to one thing or another. It's a confusing things as their are millions of different players and influences, but basically, I see Candace as the next big thing. She has the keys to the most potential of people, to inspire them, to make people Americans, not victims.
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Re: Candace Owens Congressional Testimony (New PragerU video

Post by _EAllusion »

Again, I linked multiple examples demonstrating Candace lying about verifiable historical facts as demonstrated with primary sources. I also linked extremely detailed rebuttals of the kind of revisionist and fabricated history she is attempting to promote with ample references to the underlying primary sources.

The notion that Planned Parenthood was motivated by a desire to prevent black people from reproducing is false and is generally supported with misrepresented and fabricated quotes from Margaret Sanger, which Candace Owens has personally attempted to spread.

Regarding the "Democratic plantation" argument that's been floating in conservative circles for years, with Bill O'Reiley being a popular driver of it, canpakes's point is that everyone has access to social benefits based on need. If the existence of such benefits is enough to keep African-Americans slavishly devoted to the Democratic party, then why isn't that true of other racial groups? White people can qualify and do qualify for Quest benefits too, right? So, why hasn't the Democratic party captured them if it is as simple as available government benefits = political devotion? Looks like a little more is needed to make this thesis work.
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Re: Candace Owens Congressional Testimony (New PragerU video

Post by _honorentheos »

SPG wrote:
honorentheos wrote:No, but I've heard it's opposite - the outrageous lie repeated will be believed. That originated with Hitler, by the way.

You reworded what I said into what Hitler say, and yes, I know he said that about the lie, but he wasn't only one to express that idea. So no, I wasn't quoting Hitler. But yes, he used that idea that no one would believe was he killing people by the millions because it was just to crazy.

Actually, he said it as an anti-Semitic claim. He claimed the Jews in Germany were blaming a German General for Germany's loss in WWI because he was an anti-Semite. And because the lie was so outrageous given the man was viewed as a hero by the German people, no one could possibly imagine it was a lie as it would take balls so big no one could carry them to be willing to attempt it as a lie.

So. Facts or whatever.

SPG wrote:
honorentheos wrote:No. Where you and I get crosswise is much more fundamental than that.

Ok, let's go over this, SPG style.

Meaning, I can assume if I distill the approach you take down it will reveal your "style"? Fair enough.

SPG wrote:
honorentheos wrote:Democracy, small "d" democracy, originates out of the enlightenment view that inherent to all humanity is potential to achieve whatever it is that is one's own potential that is not defined by one's birth station. At the time, one's ability to achieve one's potential was largely constrained by the lottery of birth. If a person was born into a wealthy, aristocratic family, one had much more access to education, leisure, and resources that one could learn from to become a great scientist, explorer, diplomat, philosopher, or whathaveyou. But the majority of people were born into labor.
Democracy was enlightenment, it was just another form of a rule called, "Might makes right." In the past, a single person could rise to power with their might. Sometimes by the strength of sword, or the cunning of their mind. But "might has always ruled." Democracy is merely a method of ruling where people quickly informed and agree to work together for the sake of straight. It is neither enlightening or right, merely that strongest way. You think that people like democracy because it is fair and just, but it not like that.

Yikes. SPG style is looking more like what happens when a person hands an elephant a paintbrush and passes off the results as "art". But let's see what we can make of it as best we can.

Your claims in the above:

1 - Democracy was enlightenment
2 - Democracy is a rule called, "Might makes right."
3 - "might has always ruled."
4 - Democracy is merely a method of ruling where people quickly informed and agree to work together for the sake of straight. (This one makes zero sense)
5 - Democracy is neither enlightening or right, merely that strongest way.
6 - Honorentheos (that's me!) thinks that people like democracy because it is fair and just, but it not like that.

It looks like 1 contains a typo, and you meant to say it wasn't enlightenment, which I am assuming you mean to say the form of modern democracy we enjoy in the US wasn't a result of the enlightenment. Well, I don't know if that's what you meant to say but that's what it appears you are saying anyway. Because it's pretty clear your belief is democracy is a form of strong-arming people into following the "strongest" whatever that may mean.

So cunning minds know that in order to rule, they need the numbers to be on their side. They often times make bad or false promises to get this. America is a group that has decided that everyone would be treated equal, but it doesn't happen that way. Some get government assistance, some don't. But, below the democracy is an agreement that we will all support the "team" we play on. Some try to create new teams, but they are weak.

By "support the team we play on" do you mean to say the belief that all of mankind is endowed with inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness isn't a universal pricncipal but instead the founders were implying a team this applied to?

Simply put, "Might still makes right." That is the only way we whole our country. Not by moral right, or the kindness of our heart.

Um. Do you know what fascism is by chance? It's look like a pretty good fit for your views, to be fair. SPG style is fascism? Huh.

honorentheos wrote:Much of what we take for granted in our world today is really the democratization of everything from education to infrastructure to access to open spaces and periods of leisure where we can explore our interests and uncover our potential in ways that are almost unprecedented in the long view of human history.

Again, not from the goodness of our heart, but for the pursuit of power. America is the most powerful country in the world for the mixture of our unity, resources, and knowledge. Not because we are nice and vote on everything.

You don't think opportunity, realization of human capital by making it possible that people can rise to their potential, as well as massive amounts of land and natural resources played into that? It's because might makes right, in your view?

You REALLY should look into fascism. It's a pretty good fit for your views. I'm not joking or trying to shoehorn you into some leftwing trope, either. You are giving a textbook definition of the fascist view. It's kinda crazy its so dead on.

honorentheos wrote:But this is constantly under pressure as it seems the natural order of humanity is towards hierarchy and stratification, with wealth always accumulating into fewer and fewer hands much like a game of Texas Hold ''em moves towards fewer and fewer players ending up with more and more of the pot. And, even though new players may take a seat at the table, unless they are get very lucky early on, the facts of the game make it such that a person with a lot of money can play in such a way that they force other players with less money out.

In the future, democracy might look different. Votes might be digital, person voted in for one deed, or maybe people are not voted in at all. But what will remain true is that "might makes right." Money is an illusion, it symbol of gratitude to those that help our society. Something might become free because we can afford it, like maybe free power, or free water. But the "power of motivation" created the promise of reward, usually money, will probably always be the best method of growth.

The founders settled on representative democracy rather than pure democracy because pure democracy was impractical. It is even more so today. The ability of any individual to be sufficiently informed to be able to render a vote on every single issue facing the nation or that impacts their lives in some way is unobtainable. And we all have jobs and other things to attend to. So in true macroeconomic fashion, we outsource this job to people who we are supposed to take the time to vet to assess who will represent us the best and they specialize in doing that as part of our larger society. It's complicated - well, not that complicated but it seems to go over a lot of people's heads these days - but it's how complex societies end up working. Maybe someday things will get so complicated and so out of whack we do the same thing we're doing in other industries and invent an A.I. or three or four who take on that job. I don't see the world going to pure digital democracy, or not for long. That's the worst form of mobocracy imaginable.

Mostly, reaching your potential shouldn't be a matter of democratic process. Democratic process can create opportunities for us, but if someone is "expressing" your potential for you, then it isn't true potential. Super stars of Hollywood must play the game, or they lose their status. It isn't "their potential" as much as someone using them as a product to sell. Candace sees that.

You don't get it. It isn't about politics. Small "d" democracy is an ideological view of the world that suggests the best society is one where people are able to realize their potential rather than one built on hierarchies and accidents of birth. It goes hand-in-hand with the idea behind free markets giving rise to innovations if allowed to compete. It's a rejection of the idea that imposed views of superiority or executive control can't be as effective as simply letting the cream rise to the top. So, along those lines one has to realize that race is a construct (yeah, I know your eyes popped out of your head on that one but it's true. Go do some reading) and a version of the accident of birth that has real consequences for people because of how we behave not because of who people innately are. That's what is the real truth that you pretend Candace is saying while using the idea that acknowledging society has work to do to make it an even playing field to try and maintain a status quo that works against people. it also happens to be holding you down, but hey, you're a big boy with big boy thoughts that are all your own so who am I to say otherwise?
Last edited by Guest on Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
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