Sanders Townhall on Fox News

[_EAllusion]

Chap - Ajax's argument is that since Sanders believes wealthy people should pay tax rate X, and Sanders is wealthy, he should pay tax rate X even if the law doesn't compel him to do so. Failure to do so reveals him to be a hypocrite and shows that he doesn't really take his ideas seriously. It's a variation of the "If libs really wanted higher taxes, then why don't they donate them now?" argument that used to be a dumb thing you'd encounter in a usenet discussion, but now passes for a major talking point in right-wing discourse because mainstream conservative institutions have been hollowed out of serious intellectuals.

[_Some Schmo]

Do you realize Bernie is part of the 1%? Why doesn't he donate his money freely since he has the power to do that right now?

Do you realize the roads you drive were paid for with taxes? Or do you stay off the roads because you don't want to support socialism?

Do you have any other idiotic questions?

[_Kevin Graham]

If socialism = anything we use which the government pays for, then we've been a Socialist country since day 1.

[_Some Schmo]

by the way, it's hilarious to hear Foxbots complain about hypocrisy, given their orange superhero.

He recently called asylum seeking "a big fat con job." Once again, he threw out a description that's perfect for him. I've never seen a bigger, fatter con job than that douche bag.

[_Some Schmo]

If socialism = anything we use which the government pays for, then we've been a Socialist country since day 1.

It's not, but few people in this country know what it actually means. Certainly no Trumpettes understand the term. As I said up-thread, it's a lazy term on the right that means "any gov't spending I don't like."

[_Chap]

...[an] argument that used to be a dumb thing you'd encounter in a usenet discussion, but now passes for a major talking point in right-wing discourse because mainstream conservative institutions have been hollowed out of serious intellectuals.

Yes. And that is a pity. What passes for conservative political discourse nowadays is a shadow of its former self. And that is not a good thing.

I think one of the lessons of Sanders' success on Fox was that we are reaching a stage where the audience for conservative discourse is, on average, less hollowed out than the people who nowadays do most of the talking heard by that audience.

As a result, if someone like Sanders talks to them openly and honestly, they tend to realise that this guy is offering them a piece of real juicy steak instead of a cheap greasy burger made of the sweepings of slaughterhouse floors, which is what they usually get served by the GOP nowadays.

And this makes them feel respected in a way that they have not felt for a while. More, please.

[_ajax18]

Because wanting to change social institutions doesn't logically require you to adopt those changes just yourself to your personal disadvantage. In this case, the goal is to change the system, not personal voluntary behavior.

Like how you accuse Trump of hypocrisy for his business hiring illegal immigrants? Of course if any other politician wanted real border enforcement this may have been issue for Trump, but as it is Trump is the only one willing to do much of anything to enforce the border amongst Republicans or Democrats.

When you are old enough to retire, are you going to reject social security checks because you oppose social security? Do you think failure to do so makes you a hypocrite? Since you oppose socialism in all its forms, do you refuse to enter public libraries or public schools? Does reading a book from a library make you a hypocrite?

(It doesn't)

I'd be very happy to forfeit any social security I might draw and cut my losses if we could end the program tomorrow.

[_ajax18]

There is no way that voluntary philanthropy has a cat in hell's chance of raising the amount of money required. Individual gestures of the kind you propose can do nothing useful.

Taxing the rich at 100% and putting them to the guillotine has about the same chance of funding the kind of spending that Bernie wants. And even if Bernie can't pay it all himself, why wouldn't he attempt to do so and help those he can? Is he selfish?

[Jersey Girl]

Yep! Pete is very impressive indeed. If he can't make President, he would be a good running mate for someone like Sanders.

I think Pete Buttigieg would make a great challenger for Trump. He would make Trump sound like a malignant narcissist with a tendency to say anything off the top of his head no matter how inappropriate or stupid. Plus, Pete would remind Fox viewers of their grandson rather than some cranky tyrant who tries to grab flags by their tassels.

[_EAllusion]

Like how you accuse Trump of hypocrisy for his business hiring illegal immigrants?

Who is you? I don't recall doing that, though, yeah, that would be hypocritical here, so it is consistent with something I would argue. That's breaking the law, not arguing that the law should be different while taking advantage of how it is currently set up. To create a parallel here, you'd have to find out that Sanders is a tax cheat.

When you are old enough to retire, are you going to reject social security checks because you oppose social security? Do you think failure to do so makes you a hypocrite? Since you oppose socialism in all its forms, do you refuse to enter public libraries or public schools? Does reading a book from a library make you a hypocrite?

(It doesn't)

I'd be very happy to forfeit any social security I might draw and cut my losses if we could end the program tomorrow.

Well, that just whooshed right over your head. Bernie Sanders would be happy to pay higher taxes tomorrow if taxes were higher. The analog to your reasoning is refusing to collect SS even if the program is not ended. It is refusing to use public services of all types you oppose even if they continue to be available. You seem to believe that wanting to change society requires you to divest yourself of participation in the current social framework and all the incentives it sets up. It doesn't, but that's your argument.